Donald Trump had high hopes for his first defense secretary eight years ago, but the relationship between the then-president and James Mattis, a retired four-star Marine general, soured quickly. The more Mattis emphasized responsible decision-making and the importance of international alliances, the more Trump dismissed his Pentagon chief as “sort of a Democrat.”
In December 2018, not quite two years into his tenure, Mattis wrote a rather brutal resignation letter, calling into question Trump’s judgment, values and respect for American allies. In the process, the retired general became the first modern defense secretary to resign in protest.
The relationship between his successor and Trump was actually worse. In fact, Mark Esper, the Republican’s second defense secretary, ultimately took the extraordinary step of warning the American people that he considered Trump to be “unfit” for office, a national security threat, and a “threat to democracy.”
By all appearances, there were a variety of reasons why Esper came to hold the president-elect in such contempt, but there was one incident in particular of special significance.
Wall Street Journal reporter Michael Bender wrote a 2021 book that alleged that during social justice protests a year earlier, the then-president raised the specter of shooting American activists in the legs. A year later, Esper’s own book reached the public, and he confirmed the story, alleging that during one of the protests, Trump asked his Pentagon chief, “Can’t you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something?” He later told CBS News’ “60 Minutes” that the then-president was “suggesting that that’s what we should do, that we should bring in the troops and shoot the protesters.”
In other words, according to Trump’s own handpicked defense secretary, the then-president was interested in having armed government personnel open fire on American civilians on American streets.
With Trump’s second term set to begin next week, the relevance of Esper’s story continues. Indeed, as Trump prepares to nominate former Fox News host Pete Hegseth to lead the Department of Defense, it’s hard not to wonder how he’d respond if the incoming president asked him the same question he asked Esper nearly five years ago.
The good news is, this question came up during Hegseth’s confirmation hearing on Tuesday. The bad news is, his answer fell far short. My MSNBC colleague Hayes Brown noted what happened when Democratic Sen. Mazie Hirono of Hawaii asked the prospective nominee whether he’d comply with such an order.
Hegseth waffled some about how he was there with a National Guard unit that day and saw 50 Secret Service agents injured before Hirono cut him off. “That sounds to me like you will comply, you will shoot protesters in the leg,” she declared before moving on.
As Hayes noted, it would’ve been easy for Hegseth to say, “No, I will not order American forces to fire on unarmed American civilians.” But he didn’t.
The line of questioning did not lend itself to wiggle room. “Would you carry out an order to shoot protesters in the legs as directed to Secretary Esper?” the Hawaii Democrat asked.
“I saw 50 Secret Service agents get injured by rioters trying to jump over the fence,” Hegseth said, “set a church on fire and destroy a statue. Chaos.” It led Hirono to conclude, “That sounds to me that you will comply with such an order.” Later, during the same Senate Armed Services Committee hearing, Democratic Sen. Elissa Slotkin of Michigan asked whether he would decline to carry out an illegal order. He rejected the very idea that Trump would ever give an illegal order, effectively refusing to answer the underlying question. As the hearing wrapped up, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said on the chamber floor, “Unfortunately for Mr. Hegseth, his testimony thus far has failed to address the disturbing questions that plague his nomination.” The New York Democrat quickly added, “It appears Mr. Hegseth’s strategy is to follow the five Ds of dodgeball: dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge!” (Schumer was, of course, borrowing a line from the 2004 movie “Dodgeball.”) Alas, some Hegseth’s dodges were more unsettling than others.
Steve Benen is a producer for "The Rachel Maddow Show," the editor of MaddowBlog and an MS NOW political contributor. He's also the bestselling author of "Ministry of Truth: Democracy, Reality, and the Republicans' War on the Recent Past."
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