Martin Sheen has been playing iconic leading men for nearly 70 years from “Badlands” to “Apocalypse Now” and of course as President Jed Bartlet in “The West Wing.” But the Emmy and Golden Globe winner says that while acting is his profession, activism keeps him alive. The son of immigrants, social justice is at the center of his life; Sheen’s decades of non-violent civil disobedience has earned him the dubious distinction of being the most arrested celebrity in Hollywood. At MSNBC’s annual live event MSNBCLIVE ‘25, Nicolle talks to Sheen about his faith in this country and his call to action for each of us to “lift up this country” and make politics joyful again. Plus: a surprise appearance from an old friend from Sheen’s days in the “West Wing.”
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
Martin Sheen: You know, we kind of crawled out of the ‘60s. We lost Reverend King. We lost John Kennedy, his brother, Robert. We lost Medgar Evers. We lost Malcolm X. We lost all the heroes in the martyrs, but we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes. Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Nicolle Wallace: Hi, everyone, and welcome to “The Best People” podcast. This past weekend was such a blast. I had the chance to sit down with Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor, Martin Sheen, at our annual fan event, MSNBC Live ’25. Martin’s career has span nearly 70 years in movies and series that have defined our times. Martin and I spoke in front of a live audience in New York City, about everything from his extraordinary career, to his lifelong activism, what he’s hopeful about in a very special call to action for decency in keeping the faith in these times. So this is “The Best People,” and this is Martin Sheen.
(APPLAUSE)
Nicolle Wallace: Hi, guys. Wow. This is amazing, right? Wow.
Martin Sheen: Oh, wow.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s amazing that you’re all here. I barely walked the dog today and you are all here in the rain. I’m aware every day that we stand on your shoulders, the people who watch us, and so that you’re here is huge. Thank you so, so, so much.
(APPLAUSE)
Nicolle Wallace: We’ll thank him properly in a second, so hold all that enthusiasm for one sec. The concept for adding to our offerings, “The Best People” podcast, was rooted in having some of the greatest and smartest people in my life, in your ears and in your living rooms. But the greatest of the great is someone we saved for today’s audience. Martin Sheen isn’t just one of the best people that I know, he’s the best of the best.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: The professional achievements speak for themselves, an Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor, whose career has spanned more than six decades, from “Badlands” to “Apocalypse Now,” which is a story and a podcast in and of itself, to the thing that pushed me into politics. I couldn’t do anything else with my life after watching “The West Wing” week after week after week.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: His personal story is just as compelling, and when you hear it, you’ll say, well, of course, it is. A son of immigrants, a lifelong believer and doer in nonviolent civil disobedience. Martin has said that acting is what he does, but activism is what keeps him alive. As Aaron Sorkin said about you, I’m sure you know this already, “The West Wing” is a love letter to public service. Your portrayal of the best president, one of the best presidents we’ve ever known, Jim Bartlet, is something that moves me to tears every time I see it. Here’s a little bit of it.
(BEGIN “THE WEST WING” VT)
Jed Bartlet: We hold these truths to be self-evident, they said. That all men are created equal. Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down.
I am the Lord, your God. Thou shall worship no other God before me. Boy, those were the days, huh? We are not going to be these people, Abbey. I’m not going to do it. I’ll walk up to the Hill right now, and I would give the Speaker of the House, my resignation.
Abbey Bartlet: The House isn’t in session.
Jed Bartlet: You want to see me get on the phone and put it in session?
If fidelity to freedom and democracy is the code of our civic religion, then surely the code of our humanity is fateful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we ourselves receive.
One last thing, while you may be mistaken this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight ass club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.
(END “THE WEST WING” VT) (CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: I give you, Martin Sheen.
Martin Sheen: Who was that guy?
Nicolle Wallace: Oh, we miss him. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a guest on “The Best People” podcast.
Martin Sheen: Thank you.
Nicolle Wallace: And thank you for being here with the most important people in our MSNBC family.
Martin Sheen: Thank you very much. I’m delighted.
Nicolle Wallace: I think that one of the stories I wanted to ask you to tell is we’re joined together right through the airwaves, and now, lucky for me also, through the podcast waves. But we’re in a physical place and that’s such a big deal. For people to come here is such a big deal. And one of your first acts of bringing people together for justice happened here in Times Square. Will you tell us that story about bringing together Barbara Streisand and Sammy Davis, and almost meeting Martin Luther King?
Martin Sheen: All right. Well, I was on Broadway, in a three-character play called “The Subject Was Roses.” Okay, thank you. Most of the people that saw it —
Nicolle Wallace: You were there?
Martin Sheen: — are dead by now, but I’m glad that some of you have survived. Thank you. So we started at the Royal Theater and we moved to what was called at that time, the little theater off Times Square. It was at 43rd Street, near 8th Avenue, and it was called the Winthrop Ames, and it’s a 600-seat house. And we were really the only drama on Broadway and we were doing very, very well. Thank heaven.
And so, the night of March 7th, 1965, Selma happened and the attack at the Pettus Bridge and the brutal assault on the peaceful protestors who were starting a March to Birmingham. And that Sunday night, it was all over the news, and we were just so devastated to see how far our racism had gone.
And the next day, when I came in for the show, I asked my co-star, Jack Albertson, would you agree we should do a benefit for Reverend King’s Southern Christian Leadership Conference? And a young minister from Massachusetts, who Reverend King had asked all the religions to send people to Selma to support the civil rights march, and this young man, this young minister came from Massachusetts and he was murdered the first night he arrived in Selma. His name was Reverend James Reeb.
So I told Jack, let’s do this benefit, that we’ll give the funds to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Reverend King’s organization, and the family of Reverend James Reeb. And he said, well, it’s a good idea, but we won’t make enough. We’re only 600 people. By the time we paid for the electricity alone, we won’t have any dough to share. I agreed, and I said, well, is it possible we could get all the shows on Broadway to answer Selma? He said, that’s a good idea. Let’s go and see the only guy who could possibly make that happen on Broadway, Sammy Davis, Jr., who was playing at that time at the Music Box, in a hit show called “Golden Boy.”
So the following Saturday, we went to his dressing room, between matinees, and we waited. And he received us and we told him our story, that we believed that Broadway really has to step up and answer Selma. He listened and he thought it was a great idea. And he said, the only thing I don’t like about your idea is I didn’t think of it.
So before the evening was over, he had sent telegrams. Remember, in those days, there were no cellphones and it was hard to communicate with people, but telegrams were instant response. And so, he sent telegrams to every show on Broadway, including Barbara Streisand who was a huge hit at that time in “Funny Girl,” and Maurice Chevalier who was doing a one-man show on Broadway. And he said, everybody, send a representative to Sardi’s that night, that same Saturday night, and we’ll organize a committee for Broadway answering Selma. And that’s what happened.
So this committee was formed. And I believe it was less than four weeks later, I arrived for rehearsal at the theater. We did it at the Music Box. And Ethel Merman was rehearsing at the orchestra, but I have no memory of her playing that night. I don’t know what happened at rehearsal, and she didn’t appear on the program. So if anybody knows what happened to Ethel Merman that night —
Nicolle Wallace: The mystery.
Martin Sheen: — please let us know. At any rate, we were doing a scene from “The Subject Was Roses,” and it was taking about 12 minutes, stage manager said, okay, you guys will be in the second act. We said, oh, that’s great. We’ll be able to watch the first act.
So the show began with Sammy Davis coming out on stage, and he said, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Broadway Answers Selma. Oh, and by the way, please welcome Martin Luther King, Jr. Nobody knew he was in the house, and he was in the first box seat right here. He was that close, and he stood up and he looked like he was surprised. He kind of looked astound at Sammy, you know, how could you do this to me? Anyway, he stood up and he took a brief bow, and he sat back down. The audience was not having it. They were on their feet yelling, “Bravo, bravo.” And he stood up again and took a short bow. And no, he sat down, and they were not having it. They stood up the third time. And he finally got up and he just held his heart and he bowed. And then he bet everybody, you know, to sit down and start the show, and they did.
And the first show has and always does in benefits, it was a bit longer. So it went on for two hours. And meanwhile, we were waiting backstage, and the stage manager came and said, we’re terribly sorry, I’m going to have to cut your scene. It’s taken too long. I said, that’s okay. Sammy came back, he said, I’m really sorry, we have to cut the scene, but we really are running late. But he looked at me and he said, could you help me out backstage? It’s very dark back there and some of the older folks are having trouble finding their seats in the dark before they go. I said, I’d love to. So that’s how I ended up backstage.
And act two started, Sammy was out dancing on the stage and singing a song. And I was backstage. Maurice Chevalier came in, stumbling around, and I said, over here, sir, and I got him a chair. He seated here. And the light was lighting Sammy on stage. It was filtering backstage, and I felt a presence just here, maybe 10, 12 feet away, and I looked. Reverend King was standing there alone, with his hands in his pocket, and he was just looking out on stage.
My heart started to pound and I thought, oh, my God, get the blessing. And the other part of me said, no, no, no, don’t bother him. It’s late. He’s wanting to go home and so forth. He just come to say goodnight to Sammy. Leave the man alone. No, no, no, get the blessing, get the blessing. No, no, no, don’t trouble the man. Look, he’s tired. It’s a late night. My God, he was, you know, here with us all night. Nobody even knew he was there. And before I could make up my mind, Sammy came off stage and walked right up to him. He knew he was there, hugged him, led him to the stage door and he left, and I never saw him. That was April 4th, 1965.
Exactly three years later, he was slain in Memphis. I never met him, but I told that story to Oprah Winfrey when I was playing the federal judge, Johnson, that heard the case, that finally allowed the march to Birmingham to continue. And the name of that film is called “Selma.”
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
(APPLAUSE)
Nicolle Wallace: I just wanted to put us all in a place together because I feel like one of the ways the good guys lose is if we don’t see each other and feel connected. And you’ve always been a convener, you’ve always stood by people doing the work. You didn’t even get to meet your hero, right?
Martin Sheen: No.
Nicolle Wallace: But you put this night in motion.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. It’s probably a better story that I didn’t meet him. He’d probably still be there listening to me, because I adored him. You know, we kind of crawled out of the ‘60s. We lost Reverend King. We lost John Kennedy, his brother, Robert. We lost Medgar Evers. We lost Malcolm X. We lost all the heroes and the martyrs, but we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes. Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.
(APPLAUSE)
Martin Sheen: And the only weapon to fight with is nonviolence. That’s what we carried out of the very turbulent era.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Nicolle Wallace: We’ll take a quick break here. When we come back, much more of my conversation with award-winning actor, Martin Sheen, from MSNBC Live ‘25. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
Nicolle Wallace: I asked Joan Baez this question because if you haven’t watched it, go watch her sing at the march on Washington. I asked her about that day and about that moment, and she said, this is worse. And she said, because we had each other and we had Martin, we had the music, we had the culture, and we had each other and we were physically together. She said, this feels worse. Does this moment feel worse to you?
Martin Sheen: It does because it’s scarier. Actually, since 9/11, arrest on federal property can bring an automatic six months. So you have to be really, really careful, and you have to go as a community. You can’t go by yourself. Or if you want to go by yourself, create a community and take them with you, because you have to demonstrate. In many cases, that one heart with courage is a majority, because sometimes that’s all you’ve got to go on is where you’re led.
But I’m convinced of this, that those people in opposition, to where we’re at these days, admire that kind of courage more than anything else. They can’t show it, but they sure as hell admire it. And it either brings their own humanity to the fore, or their anger and their jealousy, and they try to destroy it. Like the reverend who was standing with his arms out the other day, was obviously, clearly, not a threat to anyone —
Nicolle Wallace: In Chicago.
Martin Sheen: — who’s praying in Chicago, and the guy shot him in the head. Whoever shot him in the head with that missile has a real problem with his own humanity. I think one of the reasons why so many of the soldiers and the ICE folks —
(APPLAUSE)
Martin Sheen: — I think that they’re covering their faces because they don’t want to show their emotion. They don’t want to show that they’re not proud of what they’re doing, particularly when they’re dealing with mothers and children, and undocumented people who are of no threat, whatsoever. People are doing this because they want to be on the side that’s winning and, you know, it’s not going to last. It cannot last. It’s the great lie. But there is a great hunger for truth, and it’s a mighty battle going on.
It’s not about winning or losing. It’s about being in touch with your own personal humanity, because there’s such a lack of it coming from this administration. And I’m convinced of this —
(APPLAUSE)
Martin Sheen: — that when you look at this group of people at the round table, in the White House, the Cabinet Room, every one of those people look across the table and they do not see anyone who is better than they are. They generally see a reflection of their worth selves. So there’s no heroes in there. There’s no music. There’s no laughter. There’s no self-effacement. There’s no joy in that room. It smells of ego and fear and false worship.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Martin Sheen: I’m going on and on. And you look in that room and there’s a young man named Robert Francis Kennedy, Jr. His father sat in that room, in the ExComm committee in October 1962, during the height of the Cuban missile crisis, and he literally, with his brother John, rejected an attack on Cuba and basically saved the world from nuclear annihilation. He did it because he was in touch with his humanity and he understood the enemy was also human. And if we don’t find our own personal humanity, we cannot possibly find it or see it in each other.
CROWD: Amen.
(APPLAUSE)
Martin Sheen: And so, you know, we have to start our own journey with realizing our true selves, and that takes a lot of work. But if we’re lucky enough to surrender and accept the responsibility that we start as a nothing basically, except our humanity, and then we realize, oh, my God, being human is all we need.
We’re broken. It’s beautiful brokenness, because if you weren’t broken, nothing could get in to change you. Whether you believe in one, the other God, it doesn’t matter. The spirit cannot get in you unless there’s an entrance point. Our egos prevent it so often. But when you allow that to happen and you’re vulnerable, then you begin to realize, oh, being broken is human. It’s blessed. It’s beautiful. Like, there’s BBB. That’s a Better Business Bureau. But if you apply it to your humanity, you’re beautifully blessed and broken. All of us are.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Martin Sheen: So the big guy in the White House, if he would take some personal advice, you got to realize, sir, that you are the biggest nothing in the world.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Martin Sheen: And sir, you stop there. You stop listening to all these people around you, the sycophants who are encouraging you to be your non-human self. Get in touch with that humanity. Stop fussing with your hair and don’t worry about your tie. And stand up straight and speak clearly, not from your throat, speak from your heart, and start being human. That’s what you were made for, not golf. So there you are, Mr. President, with all due respect, sir.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, one of the things that seems to cut through in this moment is humor.
Martin Sheen: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And one of the things that drives him crazy is being mocked.
Martin Sheen: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And so, I noticed Governor Pritzker doing a spoof for Kimmel from the war zone of Chicago.
Martin Sheen: Bulletproof.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah, exactly. And I wonder how you would advise us, as a country, to deploy humor and mockery of that, which is not good.
Martin Sheen: Oh, man, if we can’t make fun of ourselves, you know, if we can’t see how absolutely ridiculous we are, even if our best, where we’re trying to hide all our flaw. You know, I look at myself on the monitor every now and then, and I say, who is that old white-haired man sitting up there? For God’s sake, I was that guy up there, with a full head of wonderful hair and looked like I was 30 years younger. I was almost that. But, no, this is who I am now and I wouldn’t be able to sit here if I wasn’t able to see the flaw in myself.
My kids, my wife, Janet, everyone I know and that truly loves me, finds the humor in everything that I do and most of the things I don’t do and should do. And so I’m very, very fortunate in that. Sometimes it hurts like hell.
The ego is such a beast and it will beat you down. But the ego has a great purpose. It teaches us how to identify with ourselves. If I didn’t have an ego, I wouldn’t be able to take responsibility for what I believe. I would be governed by you and you. That’s the real purpose of the ego. When it gets out of hand, I want to take it all from everybody. And I’m fed by that, but you’ll choke on your own ego.
I think that the old phrase that the Roman conquerors would come back to Rome, they would hire a slave when they’re going through the tumultuous crowd, and they’re being worshiped. And the slave was asked to do one thing, as he held the wreath over the conqueror, whispered in his ear, when the crowd is screaming, the slave would constantly say, it’s only fleeting. It’s only fleeting. It’s only fleeting. This administration is only fleeting. It’s only fleeting. It’s only fleeting.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think they know that?
Martin Sheen: Oh, they got to know it. No.
Nicolle Wallace: Really?
Martin Sheen: Because there’s no heroes around them to remind them. They think that they’re winning.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: You know, that’s the goal. In a bull fight, he thinks he’s winning.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: You know, they think they’re winning.
Nicolle Wallace: But they also act like they think it’s forever, and law firms act like it’s forever, which is why they abandon their principles. And universities seem to think, well, maybe this is forever. We’ll capitulate to something that is against everything literally in our creed.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: And people seem to capitulate like they think it’s forever. But I agree with you, it’s more likely than not fleeting.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. It’s only fleeting. It’s only fleeting. This is only fleeting. You and I are only fleeting. All of you are only fleeting.
Nicolle Wallace: What do you think is brewing in Hollywood?
Martin Sheen: Not much.
Nicolle Wallace: Right? Well, but why? I mean, artists have typically seen it is existential to have the First Amendment in peril, to have artistry controlled.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: Why do you think Hollywood has been slow to step in?
Martin Sheen: I don’t really feel a part of Hollywood, frankly.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: And that’s okay. I didn’t start out as a part of Hollywood and I won’t end up a part of Hollywood, unless I get buried in the Forever Hollywood Cemetery. But I’ve never felt a part of Hollywood. I came to New York. I was here for 10 years and did mostly theater.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: And I only went to the West Coast because you could make a living there. You know, theater didn’t pay for the rent very often, but it nourished you, and you had to be in love with the craft and the energy and the literature. The theater is literature, to begin with. And so, that’s what nourished us, and it still nourishes people.
But Hollywood is so multi-leveled. You know, a young person, if you have a certain energy, a certain talent, they’ll let you or you choose. I don’t know what it is. I’ve never ever felt a part of Hollywood.
Nicolle Wallace: Really?
Martin Sheen: Yeah. I always felt a bit embarrassed when they called me a Hollywood actor. I always thought I was a Broadway star, for heaven’s sake.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Nicolle Wallace: You are. Can you talk a little bit about your relationship with Aaron Sorkin who wrote Jed Bartlett, but who also wrote “The American President”?
Martin Sheen: Yeah, he did.
Nicolle Wallace: And I think when you see in President Clinton or President Obama, a reflection or relationship to the fictional presidents, you feel different about your country than when you see someone who said, grab them in the you know what. I mean, you know, there’s no relationship between this current president and anything that’s ever been fictionalized —
Martin Sheen: No.
Nicolle Wallace: — by Aaron Sorkin.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: So where does that come from?
Martin Sheen: Well, Aaron is a super patriot, with a brilliant mind and a fair heart. You know, he never cast a Republican as an enemy.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Martin Sheen: They were the loyal opposition if the Democrats were in power —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Martin Sheen: — and then vice versa. You know, we grew up with Eisenhower. He was like a grandfather, you know. And here comes John Kennedy, like a father, you know.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: And so, we were available to that kind of leadership. Particularly, my generation was Kennedy, I wasn’t even old enough to vote for him when he won his election because at that time you had to be 21. But Aaron even said it openly in “The American President,” of an unabashed love of country.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Martin Sheen: Not politics or party per se, but of country, of the possibility of it, of the magic of it, of the generosity. Everybody had a stake in the matter. Everybody had an opinion and it mattered —
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: — and it influenced, starting with your parents, you know.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Martin Sheen: So we stood and salute the flag. It was a joy, a pleasure. We didn’t feel like it was an obligation. I was at the end of World War II as a boy, but we remembered a lot of it, you know, and what it did to the country and how we began to love what we stood for, where we came from, where we could take it, you know. And it took all of us to go to where we wanted to go, but we could go anywhere we wanted, you know.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think we are still capable of that?
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: Of being United? Yeah.
Martin Sheen: Oh, yeah, we still are. There’s so much courage there. There’s so many lights. It’s never that dark ever, no matter where you walk —
(APPLAUSE)
Martin Sheen: — into that darkness. And I promise you, as I’ve said it before, that the opposition, they’ve chosen to be the opposition. We have not made them an enemy. That they’ve chosen to be an opposition. They admire courage. They admire a sense of view. They admire all the things that are human. They’re just not permitted to show it. I think I said before, you know, they’re having them wear the masks, and partly so that they don’t show their emotion, because they’re not proud of what they’re doing most of the time, particularly when they’re bullies, you know. So that’s not who we are. That’s who they think they are at this time.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Nicolle Wallace: My conversation with Martin Sheen continues right after this. We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
Martin Sheen: Aaron Sorkin, we’ll get back to him, he was so inspiring and so right on about the country —
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: — why we loved it so much. Even when we hated it, we loved it. That’s the way we felt about it because it belonged to us. It was ours. We didn’t give it over to anybody.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Martin Sheen: It was not theirs to decide. It was us, the people, and it still is. Aaron, you know, when I first started the show, I would debate him. My lines, you know, Aaron, I would never say this. He said, no, I understand that. And he said, no, I want to say this. All right, fine. What about this? Are you okay with this? Well, I think maybe not. All right, go, blah, blah, blah. So we would negotiate.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: But I would say what I wouldn’t say. Gradually, I learned that when I did it my way, it was Martin and it was okay. When I did it his way, it was Bartlet and it was wonderful.
Nicolle Wallace: Aww.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Nicolle Wallace: I love that. I love that. I think that people feel nostalgic again.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you feel that?
Martin Sheen: Very much so. Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: Because I think it’s an iconic show.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: I work in politics because of watching C.J. Cregg.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: I wanted to be C.J. Cregg.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: And I think that when things feel off there, people crave that character in that show even more.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. Well, remember we had Lawrence O’Donnell.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah. Well, I think we have Lawrence O’Donnell. Is he in the building? I don’t know. Maybe we’ll see him.
Martin Sheen: We had the great Lawrence O’Donnell.
Nicolle Wallace: You asked.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Lawrence O’Donnell: I heard my name.
Martin Sheen: God bless. Thank you so much. Look who’s here now.
Lawrence O’Donnell: Oh, suddenly. No, no, you take that.
Nicolle Wallace: No, no. Yeah. No. Sit.
Martin Sheen: You arrived just in time.
Lawrence O’Donnell: Oh, you know, we at “The West Wing,” where I was the writer.
Nicolle Wallace: Can you remind everybody? Because I Googled, you were an executive producer. You were a writer.
Lawrence O’Donnell: A lot of people were executive producers.
Nicolle Wallace: The most famous episodes.
Lawrence O’Donnell: Yeah.
Nicolle Wallace: The most famous episode you wrote, right?
Lawrence O’Donnell: I wrote a bunch of them in the later years, especially, but I was there from the very beginning, beginning with Episode 2 because Aaron wrote the pilot alone and you guys did it without any writing staff. We met at the first table read of Episode 2, and then I was there right through to the end of the show.
And what I’m so thrilled about you experiencing here today with this guy is that you’re getting a feeling that I’ve never really been able to explain to people about what it was like to go to work with him every day, you know, to be in the presence of this generosity and grace and goodness and wisdom every day. We had a leader.
(APPLAUSE)
Lawrence O’Donnell: You know, we had a leader. That was the leader you saw on the show. And you also get to understand something that I’ve tried to explain to people. People in show business get it. But it’s the thing I dislike the most about my show is that I’m the one on TV, and what’s so difficult for me about that is that, yes, I write those scripts that I say on TV. But I wrote scripts for him. I wrote scripts and handed them to him, and to Allison Janney, and to Brad Whitford, and to so many great actors, Alan Alda and Jimmy Smits. And so, for me, to write a script and then do it for you is a sacrilege after having done it.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Lawrence O’Donnell: Imagine 10:00 PM, okay, the writing staff stays the same and he comes out. Okay. That’s a better show.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Martin Sheen: That’s totally, totally not true, to begin with. And for some of you who have not watched the show or don’t know, he actually played my father in one episode. But I wasn’t fortunate enough to be the actor at that time. They got a younger version of me. And they had an argument in the scene and he had to smack him. He nearly knocked the kid out.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Martin Sheen: So I felt he was trying to get back at me. Everything he said about me is a reflection of himself. We had an authenticity that was not possible without Lawrence O’Donnell, not just his work with Senator Moynihan here in New York, but he understood the Senate and the House. He understood the executive branch and all the divisions that are supposed to exist between them, and he brought that and he brings it every night but Friday, incidentally.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Nicolle Wallace: How do I get that schedule?
Martin Sheen: Nevermind. Look that way.
Nicolle Wallace: Can I ask both of you a question? This is what we were starting to talk about. It’s not just the enduring connection that I think fans have to “The West Wing,” it’s almost in the absence of something that everyone wants their kids to emulate. And I’m not even sure a MAGA family wants their kids to emulate Donald Trump. I’m not sure about that, but I don’t think so. His language and his bullying, and his conduct online alone. What is it about the show in these moments that you think endures?
Lawrence O’Donnell: I do think the thing that has a value right now, and I learned from the audience, you know, because when we were doing it. You know, it’s this mad struggle to get the script done on time and we never got it done on time. And now, I think it has a new importance. And a friend of mine told me recently that when he first saw the show, he wasn’t a big fan because he thought it was maybe a little too naive and didn’t really get all of the sharp elbow stuff that happens in the White House. But, now, he’s watching it with his two sons, 14 years old and 16 years old, both of whom when you think about when they started to pay attention to a president, have had Donald Trump in their lives as president for their entire awareness —
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
Lawrence O’Donnell: — of the presidency. And they need him.
Nicolle Wallace: Yeah.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Martin Sheen: Yeah. No, no, it’s not me. I’m too old. They need Bartlet.
(CROWD LAUGHING)
Martin Sheen: But the credibility that Lawrence brought to the show every single time was impeccable. Nobody could challenge his knowledge and his love of the process, his love of the U.S. Senate. Particularly, we heard you talking about it the other night, when you were interviewing Senator Whitehouse and so forth. But the love of the Senate and the process of how it works, and all the other branches as well, that credibility was the foundation that kept us afloat. It kept us above because we knew what we were doing was legal, was honest and was also the truth, but it was equally entertaining, because a lot of people didn’t know how things actually work in politics, but this gentleman knew.
And the only, I wouldn’t say, criticism of shows, but I always say program. I never want to say show because show is something that goes on in the Oval. Program is what goes on at MSNBC.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: That’s right. Lawrence, I’m so glad you came out here with us.
Lawrence O’Donnell: There’s only one person who could get me up at this hour on a Saturday morning.
Nicolle Wallace: Well.
Martin Sheen: It’s my fault.
Lawrence O’Donnell: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: All right.
Nicolle Wallace: We’ll hear about it later. Thank you, all of you. I’m so happy that you’re all here. I’m so happy you got to see Martin Sheen.
(CROWD CHEERING)
Nicolle Wallace: And Lawrence O’Donnell, thank you.
Martin Sheen: Thank you.
Nicolle Wallace: Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Lawrence O’Donnell: By the way, Martin really had no idea that I was going to be here. He had no idea.
Nicolle Wallace: I almost blew it too because we were talking about you. And yeah, anyway, you were here for something special with them. Thank you so much.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Nicolle Wallace: Thank you so much for listening to “The Best People.” You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcast to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad-free. As a subscriber, you’ll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of the podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com/thebestpeople.
“The Best People” is produced by Vicki Vergolina, and senior producer, Lisa Ferri. Our associate producer is Ranna Shahbazi, and we had additional production support this week from Anne Gimbel. Our audio engineer is Bob Mallory, and Katie Lau is our senior production manager. Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Pat Burkey is the senior executive producer of “Deadline: White House.” Brad Gold is the executive producer of content strategy. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of audio, and Madeleine Haeringer is the senior vice president in charge of audio, digital and long form.
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