Kara Swisher is a boss. As a journalist, entrepreneur, and longtime podcast host, she understands the intersection between tech and media, wealth and power like no one else. Kara joins Nicolle in this episode to talk about the art and intimacy of podcasting, the carnival barker Trump has always been and why she takes no guff from tech titans like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
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Kara Swisher: I think intuitively, he’s got a lizard mentality, right? He’s got that lizard brain, so he kind of sees where the power is. In scamming, he is Michael Corleone, and in governing, he’s Fredo.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. It’s a great line.
Kara Swisher: Which you wish you have Michael Corleone on government.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, exactly.
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Nicolle Wallace: Hi, everyone and welcome to “The Best People with Nicole Wallace.” If you could clone one person for this moment in American political life, you would clone Kara Swisher. She’s in that much demand. She knows all of the people pulling all of the levers in tech and business and politics and government. She knows them all and is on a first name basis with most of them. She’s also incredibly generous with first time podcasters like yours truly. So without any further ado, this is “The Best People with Nicole Wallace,” and this is Kara Swisher.
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So you’re at “The Best People” podcast.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: “The Best People” podcast is our new venture.
Kara Swisher: Yes. Are they the best people?
Nicolle Wallace: Well, you are.
Kara Swisher: Okay. Alright. Okay. Fine.
Nicolle Wallace: And everyone has to be the best that we could find to talk to us about something.
Kara Swisher: Okay. Alright.
Nicolle Wallace: So you actually are one of the best people under both, like, the actual best people, but also the best person to talk to about how to pod.
Kara Swisher: Oh, okay.
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, what —
Kara Swisher: Oh, alright. And so I’m going to give you a lesson.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Yes. You’re all doing it. It’s crazy.
Nicolle Wallace: Everyone’s doing but no one’s been doing this as well or as long as you.
Kara Swisher: I have been doing it a long time.
Nicolle Wallace: And that’s sort of the theme that runs through everything that you do.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And everything that you look at.
Kara Swisher: So you’re saying a mold.
Nicolle Wallace: No. I’m saying you see around corners. And I wonder. I mean, I think a lot of people that do that have, like, an intuitive sense.
Kara Swisher: Yes, I did. Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And I wonder if that’s what you think explains that.
Kara Swisher: I’ll tell you where I got the idea from, from Steve Jobs because they, of course, started the iPod, right, and created that whole genre of listening and having the intimate relationship with people. And it started with music, but we did an interview, one of the last interviews he did, where he talked about podcasting, and he had sort of created the genre in many ways. And he said it’s the iPod and broadcasting. Podcasting, right? And I was sort of like, huh, that’s really interesting.
It got me interested because I thought there is an intimate relationship I had with my phone and that people were doing listening in some fashion. And I was like, okay, advertising is over on the Internet. I think this podcasting is going to be a big deal. The concept was I was doing the conference, the live conference where we do Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, and that was about 16 interviews a year. But there were hundreds of interesting people in tech and media that you didn’t know about. And so it was taking the idea of podcasting and the idea of the conference and bringing them together where you could meet all these people in a much more intimate and substantive setting.
And so what I did was I started bringing in people to do it, and it was really fun for me. And one of the things that I knew it was going to be a success was I had a lot of fans. I always knew my fans. It was like white guy of a certain age, occasionally an Indian guy, an Asian guy, but always the same, who’s a geek. Oh, it’s Kara Swisher. I was riding in the MUNI in San Francisco, and four young African-American women came up to me. And they’re like, Kara, we love you. And I was like, did someone playing a joke? Like, it was not my demo, really.
And they say, we love this, we love that. They were only talking about the podcast, which was interesting. And I said, are you in tech? And they said, no. We’re entrepreneurs, though. And we love when you stick it to that guy, and we love when you stick it to that guy. And we learned a lesson from that lady and stuff like that. And they all wanted a selfie, and they all felt like they knew me because I talked about myself on the show too. And I was like, oh, this is different. They felt like they had a relationship with me —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — in a way that even though I was well known as a reporter and did the big events that we did, not the same. And that moment with those women taking a selfie with me it was a big revelation. And so I kept leaning into it. I love when anyone has that reaction to anything that we do —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — I love someone came up to me yesterday. I was walking home with my daughter, and I hugged her. And I think she was just like, I can’t believe you’re hugging me. There’s something about, like, someone that feel —
Nicolle Wallace: Fans.
Kara Swisher: — right, or like, people that are in the community —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — people that make time to listen to you. And I feel this, and I don’t know if it’s because I think this whole thing is sort of like a winning lottery ticket, right? That I’m doing this thing that I care a lot about.I mean, and I, for the most part, cover Trump and talk about democracy and there’s —
Nicolle Wallace: I had noticed that.
Kara Swisher: But I think it’s amazing that there are people that’ll sit with, I mean, podcast is long. My show is long.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. I mean, what do you think it is?
Kara Swisher: Well, podcast, you’ll find different —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — because it’s a much more intimate setting, even more so. Because in the desk, you’re sitting there, and you’re kind of —
Nicolle Wallace: Correct.
Kara Swisher: — Nicole at the desk.
Nicolle Wallace: Correct, like here I am.
Kara Swisher: And, like, you hit the lights and you’re —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: But you’re running the show.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And it’s vaguely airless too. It does —
Nicolle Wallace: Totally.
Kara Swisher: — in some fashion.
Nicolle Wallace: Climate controlled. Yes.
Kara Swisher: With podcasts, it’s a much more intimate situation. And what’s interesting is the different kinds of people that come up to you. Like, I love the fans. They’re actual fans, which is a very different relationship than an audience or a viewer —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: Or a listener or a reader. And so what was what’s really interesting is I had one older woman came up to me, and she sat right down next I knew it was a podcast fan and said, I just want to tell you, you’re my friend, but I’m not yours. And I was like, I get it. And she goes, you’re my friend. Thank you. And I said, no problem. And she walked away. Then I was walking in New York and this big Lincoln Navigator made a 360. I mean, a 180 on the street and I thought, oh, finally, Elon Musk’s going to kill me. This is it. This is the moment where I’m taken.
Nicolle Wallace: Because that’s how it will be, right?
Kara Swisher: Where the fuck is Liam Neeson, right, to get me back? Like, I’m like, notice everything. Do the thing. I was like, notice where it’s going so I can tell Liam Neeson to save me. So, a guy jumps out, big guy, and he goes, Kara Swisher, and I’m like, oh, god, this sucks. This is going to suck because he’s going to insult me or something like that. And he’s like, I love you and Scott. Scott’s always wrong. I love you. And I was like, okay. And he said, I scare you. I said, you terrified me. And he just wanted to have a connection.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so —
Nicolle Wallace: That’s awesome.
Kara Swisher: — that’s what’s great about it, that you get all these different people and they have an opinion about you because I think you are intimate with them in a way, and that’s what you have to lean into. You have to tell about yourself. You have to explain your life. And if you’re not genuine, they get it right away.
Nicolle Wallace: I think that, sort of bullshit meter is the flip side of everything that everybody complains about.
Kara Swisher: I always argue with the idea that people don’t like media. I think they don’t like media. They don’t feel that that they can understand. And so I always think they don’t like this media. They like that media. And you have to sort of explore what they’re getting from the Manosphere blogs, right or Manosphere podcast, for example. There’s a certain camaraderie. There’s a tribe. And I don’t mean tribe in a negative way because it can be used in a negative way. They feel like they’re part of something and they’re part of a narrative and story. And they feel like you’re a real person.
And I think that changes like, I have a lot of people who don’t agree with me, but they still want to listen and argue. And that’s why we have a lot of people we don’t agree with on the show. That’s why Scott and I on “Pivot” don’t agree with each other a lot, and we hash it out in a civil way, and I think it gives like, recently, it’s interesting. We have a lot of people come up to us saying, thank you, you make me feel better. And it’s a really interesting thing because a lot of products don’t make you feel better, especially including, by the way, news.
News doesn’t make you feel better anymore. And it’s not meant to assuage you. You’re supposed to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, but it shouldn’t make you feel hopeless and that there isn’t something to do. And for some reason, with a podcast, you have more options for the listener. It’s not dire. It’s like, let’s get to a place where we can solve a problem.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think that is a product of the moment in our politics, or do you think it is sort of a post COVID hunger for connection?
Kara Swisher: Well, we got huge in COVID. That was one thing —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — because people were home and they felt alone and isolated. There is this vision of radio is this this noise coming out of nowhere and then you’re sitting there in a lonely place and you hear music or you hear a voice or a DJ. So America is very attuned to that, right, that idea of the radio. It’s so iconic in in American culture. One of the things that that you also get to do is you get to be substantive, right? Whether it’s Charlamagne tha God, who I think is fantastic.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Whether I think Theo Von is interesting. Like, you get to have real conversations that don’t feel like cable, which you’re on, which is next, next, next. Now we have the thought of the moment. And I do think that people like that too, but they prefer to have a real conversation. So it feels more like a kitchen table. It feels more like a family dinner. It feels more like that.
Nicolle Wallace: Like life.
Kara Swisher: Like life. Yes, exactly. You like it a lot. You’ll find it’s the one thing you look forward to versus your job, which is interesting.
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, I love my job too, but I know what you’re saying about it feeling more like the conversations you’re having in your real life.
Kara Swisher: Yes, exactly, which you have.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. They’re not scripted. They’re not on the teleprompter. They’re the conversations you have —
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: — on the sidelines at a baseball game —
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: — or a drop off or —
Kara Swisher: It’s an ongoing conversation especially like on “Pivot” where Scott and I talk about what we’ve done and what we’re doing and where we’re going. People are always inquiring. How’d that trip go?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: I was in, where was I? Somewhere. Oh, you said you’d be here, and here you are. You know what I mean? Well, I’m like, well, yes. I’m telling the truth of where I am.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. It’s all we’ve got.
Kara Swisher: And so that’s what’s interesting is people do follow. And, again, people are used to the genre of a sitcom or a TV show, or they’re following your story, and stories are what people like, I think.
Nicolle Wallace: I think it’s some of the sort of the eliteness, the allure of “The Apprentice.”
Kara Swisher: I watched every episode.
Nicolle Wallace: Well, and there’s something I think it had. It checked all the boxes right. There was a reality TV aspect to it, which is so attractive to so many people.
Kara Swisher: Yes. It’s a game.
Nicolle Wallace: I watched “American Idol” for years.
Kara Swisher: It’s a game.
Nicolle Wallace: I watched “So You Think You Can Dance.” I mean, there’s something about reality TV where you don’t know what’s going to happen. And then there was this aspirational American story about success —
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: — and “The Apprentice.” But I feel like it’s a big piece of the Trump story that everyone that doesn’t consume reality TV or that didn’t watch “The Apprentice” is still blind to.
Kara Swisher: Well, it’s interesting. I love “The Apprentice.” I mean, I understood. Look, my grandfather did wrestling, was a wrestling promoter too. So that whole thing, I loved, the whole fake story and everything else. And I got the appeal of it and how fun it was. Fake gladiatorial kind of stuff.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And when I saw “The Apprentice,” it was that. That’s what it was, essentially. And I kind of saw him as, I hate to use the word appealing with him, but it was appealing. He was sort of self-deprecating. N
Nicolle Wallace: He appealed in his base, yes.
Kara Swisher: Not just his base. He was self-deprecating. It was funny. It was ridiculous. Everything was ridiculous and silly and whatever. Like, you make a lemonade stand and sell this many on Park Avenue or whatever, see if you can get away with this. And so it had kind of a hijinks moment to it. And then there was the whole scene of firing, right, which I thought was fascinating. Like, it’s not real, but it was fascinating. And I watched every episode to the bitter fucking end, that too, by the way. And it got bad. I knew when it turned.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: I’m like, oh, no. It’s not good. Like, that’s bad. And when he was running, I was at a party in Washington. It was all these Washington reporters, and they were all making fun of him. And I had just done an interview with Arianna Huffington, and she put him in the entertainment section when he ran and I disagreed with her. I’m like, oh, no, he’s very appealing. Because Barack Obama was the first celebrity president. Even though he wasn’t a celebrity, he was a celebrity president.
Nicolle Wallace: He’s famous, yes.
Kara Swisher: Right?
Nicolle Wallace: He became famous.
Kara Swisher: In culture and stuff like that. And Bill Clinton to an extent was that, but Barack Obama really did, but then we moved and created a celebrity as president, right? So it made sense that it would go there with someone like this guy. And I was there and they were like, making fun of him. And I said, have you watched “The Apprentice?” And they’re like, no, how ridiculous. I’m like, no, no, no. He’s a poor person’s version of a rich person. Not just a poor person. He’s an aspirational person’s version.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Right.
Kara Swisher: I was like, he’s really appealing. I’m a lesbian from San Francisco and I like him. I’m not going to vote for him because he seems horrible with his racist bullshit. But, man, do I find him appealing. And that’s troubling to me because I can see how he would appeal to everyone else. And he also was a liar. He told stories. He was like a constant liar the way that we have in our history, P.T. Barnum, Huey Long. Those people appeal to us, these kind of tale tellers. And I just thought he was perfect and he is actually the perfect person for the Internet age. And that’s why I was paying attention because he really broke through. Once he broke through on Twitter, I was like, oh, this guy’s going to win.
Nicolle Wallace: Why did he break through on Twitter?
Kara Swisher: Because he was his own self. He was his genuine fake self, right? I had that experience with someone. I interviewed Kim Kardashian. Everyone was like, why are you interviewing her? I was like, because she’s breaking through on the digital platform. Because whatever you think of her, she’s her genuine version of whatever she’s selling, right, kind of thing. But he was talking directly to people. He was talking in plain English. He was talking like, saying crazy stuff. He was doing it for reaction. He understood it intuitively, the sort of shock value. And I found him to be the first, you know, first Twitter president.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And the other person who was very good at it was AOC. Opposite, but similar. I did a column in the “New York Times” comparing them —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — and I was like, they’re exactly the same character in terms of using these mediums. And so he understood he could then bypass the media and get his own messages out and keep everyone in a constant state of snackable, and that’s the term they use. It was actually brilliant. It was brilliant what he did there.
Nicolle Wallace: How does he do it for the comeback in this election?
Kara Swisher: How did he do it?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. I mean, how was he still outpacing all the competition in the Republican Party and on the Democratic side in year nine?
Kara Swisher: Because they’re cloddish, like, right? They’re cloddish. I think he’s still actually very good at it. It’s getting tired like the last couple seasons of “The Apprentice.” You’re like, oh, this guy. This fucking guy again. Like, I know that trick. I know that.
Nicolle Wallace: Alright.
Kara Swisher: Like, so he doesn’t have a lot of new stuff. It sort of was like the way he did the rallies, right.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Which everyone made fun of him, like, that’s brilliant. The rallies are brilliant because you’ve got lots of digital moments that you could pull out, and he says outrageous things. And then, especially the media would be like he’d say something outrageous, and then the media would be like, can you believe that? I’m like, yes. I can believe it because he did it last week.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: So I think it kept him in the conversation that you cannot look away from him. And one of the things that he is, and I’m using this term correctly. He’s promiscuous. He’s like so promiscuous online. And that is really a key, and he makes mistakes, and he’s promiscuous, and he keeps at it. And you have to do that in today’s media environment —
Nicolle Wallace: Why?
Kara Swisher: — because there’s no such thing as too much. Because it’s a yawning maw of information that just doesn’t end like a flood. And just like creators are like that too.
Nicolle Wallace: Right, right, right.
Kara Swisher: They have to constantly be making, and he’s constantly making even if it has a deleterious effect on our country. It doesn’t matter. I thought Vice President Harris did a great job online, but she was a little bit away, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And one of the things I talked to her after the election, and I said, you got to like, where are you hiding? You got to come back out. And she essentially said, they’re sick of me. I’m like, no. There’s no such thing of sick of you anymore. Like, you need to get out there and make mistakes and make yourself a nuisance. And that’s what Trump does really well. He’s a nuisance, except that you like to look at him.
Nicolle Wallace: What is the role of sort of the way we consume politicians on social media, on cable, on podcasts, and the kind of choices we’re making? I mean we —
Kara Swisher: It’s not great.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: It’s like Twinkies, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: That’s the problem. And although some of them are really good. For example, any news event that happens, some of the funny stuff is wonderful, like, really wonderful and creative. I do think there’s so much negative about it and I talk about this a lot. But there is so much also wonderful about it in some ways. It’s humanity talking to itself in a way —
Nicolle Wallace: Chatter (ph).
Kara Swisher: — and sometimes it’s really vile, which is what humanity is. And sometimes it’s absolutely delightful. And one of the things Scott and I were talking about last night actually were out, and I was like, I watch social media for pleasure. Like, he watches certain things. Like, he’s always putting up these lovely videos of kids or whatever. Something like there’s always dogs involved in something. And he puts on me, he says, this gives me peace. And I said, why are you writing it that way?
And he said, because I feel better after watching that. When I’m watching the Trump stuff, I feel worse, so I have to stop doing that. But when I start watching these adorable videos of a dad with his kid or whatever, something —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: He feels better. So that’s a great reflection of humanity. Years ago when I was at Google, one of the things they did, later, not when I was in the garage, but later, they had —
Nicolle Wallace:You were in the garage?
Kara Swisher: Oh, Yes. I went to their garage when they were found it.
Nicolle Wallace: Where was it?
Kara Swisher: It was in Palo Alto.
Nicolle Wallace: In Palo Alto?
Kara Swisher: In Susan Wojcicki’s house in her garage. They rented it from her, and that’s where I met them. When you walked in there, there was a scroll that went by of all the words that were people were searching at that moment, right? And it would go by, like, whenever it would go by. Often, it was news things. Often, it was big things. But every now and then, you’d see, like, horses, the things people would search, the prompts they would put in, which was like, horses, snow, space, and you’re like, what does that person want? What are they searching for?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Yes.
Kara Swisher: Right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And I would sit there just riveted. Like, what are they searching for? And then I sort of started to realize this was the expression of humanity. Like, you could see into the thought bubble. What are the questions people want to know?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And it was like humanity, this is the brain of humanity and what it’s asking for. So what is the question you’re asking? It’s so important to understand where you’re going, right? And so that’s what I love about it.
Nicolle Wallace: Is that still what’s happening or is it being pushed the other direction?
Kara Swisher: Absolutely, it’s being used for both a tool and a weapon. And so one of the things that I was mentioning at the Google people, they’re like, we take the porn and dirty stuff and nasty stuff out on that scroll because there’s plenty of that because people are asking terrible questions, right?
And it’s going to get even worse in AI. We can talk about that in a minute, but because the prompt is everything. Like, that Google box was the question. You don’t exist if you’re not asking questions. And so that box was so brilliant in its config. It’s so simple in the idea. What do you want? What is it you want? And now AI, the prompt is critical to what’s going for. The word prompt is so important right now.
And so I think it can go either tool or a weapon. It can be delightful. Show me bears getting into houses. Show me ASMR, like cutting sand. I like it. It calms me down. Or it could be, how do I kill my husband? How do I build a bomb? How do I, right? And so it can go either way because the algorithm doesn’t care. The algorithm has no soul. It has no ability to determine. And that’s what’s the scary part because whatever you put into it is what you’re going to get out of it.
Nicolle Wallace: People used to ask me, oh, how did Trump take over the Republican Party? And I and I said, he’s like Julia Roberts’ character in Pretty Woman. Like, what’s your name? Whatever you want it to be.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And so the Republicans heard, like, federal judges they like.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: I remember Mitch McConnell came to “Morning Joe” with a crumpled up piece of paper in his pocket, ready to defend his endorsement of Donald Trump. And he said, look, he’s going to appoint all these people.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: Donald Trump didn’t give a shit who —
Kara Swisher: No, but he did that, though.
Nicolle Wallace: But he did all those things.
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: And so he answered the prompt properly for Mitch McConnell, and then he gave his aspirational fans. He had fans. I mean, I guess back to your first point.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: Like, Trump was the first —
Kara Swisher: Yes, fan based —
Nicolle Wallace: — Republican politician with fans.
Kara Swisher: Yes, 100%. That’s the thing. He really did. And what’s important to understand because it’s very easy. I don’t believe in Trump derangement syndrome. It’s so ridiculous. He’s irritating. Like, that’s just normal. He’s a fucking irritating person. He’s doing terrible things, and so you’re mad about it. Fine. That’s okay. Steve Jobs once said, the key to Apple was they took complex ideas and made them simple. Complex things and made them simple. And what too many people do is they take simple things and make them complex. And people are upset.
The ability to make things simple can be a very good and beautiful gift. In the case of Apple, they made a beautiful phone. It was simple, right? It’s easy to use. You got it right away. Trump does that for people. He makes it seem simple. He makes the complex issues of the world seem like, oh, I got a plane? So what? It’s like a putt.
Nicolle Wallace: But why can’t the people trying to defeat him in the Republican Party? He’s faced two Republican primaries and he creamed all of them. They weren’t even contested.
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: And he’s beat two of the three Democrats he’s run against.
Kara Swisher: Well, because now he’s coalesced power, so he’s got it, right? So now it’s inevitable that you can’t go against him. There were moments when they certainly could have, but I think what they were doing is each of them was playing it safe, like what I was just talking about with Harris.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, too cautious. There’s no such thing as cautious. You cannot be cautious. The other thing is I don’t think they speak plainly to people. The Democrats definitely don’t. I mean, like, oligarch. Please stop saying that word. I know what it means.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: I went to college, but, like, what is an oligarch? Who knows? I mean, unless you study Russian history. And it’s the correct word. It’s just why not just say rich people taking your things? Like, that kind of thing.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so, when I would talk about, say, an Elon Musk, I’m like, that rich guy’s taking your things, and he’s getting while the getting’s good, that kind of thing. And I think Trump does that really well. He sort of when he did the putt thing, everyone made fun of him. I said, everyone got what he said. Everyone got that message because they understood. He took what is really repulsive corruption down to a, someone offering something for free.
Nicolle Wallace: Everybody does it.
Kara Swisher: Not just everybody does it. It’s like, so what? Big deal.
Nicolle Wallace: Well, and I think what a lot of people will believe is that he’s the smart one, and we’re the suckers because he got a plane for America for free.
Kara Swisher: Right. Right.
Nicolle Wallace: And we’re dumb schmoes who would have paid for it.
Kara Swisher: Right. Exactly.
Nicolle Wallace: And we are going to charge them, those taxpayers.
Kara Swisher: We are going to be paying for it, by the way.
Nicolle Wallace: Of course we are.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
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Nicolle Wallace: We’ll pause here, but when we’re back, we’ll have much more with Kara Swisher. Back in a moment.
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Nicolle Wallace: I have this sort of philosophy that anyone that does grave seemingly, like, indiscriminate destruction to an institution, whether it’s cheered on by their base or not, is separate from their own sort of pathology why they do it. That there’s some trauma story or some —
Kara Swisher: Definitely.
Nicolle Wallace: — something. And that’s always been my theory with Trump. And the more I’ve gotten to know the family members that have written books, that seems to bear out. What is Elon Musk’s trauma story?
Kara Swisher: One of the things I used to say to a lot of people I covered because you could see that the trauma, obviously, lack of therapy. We would have done very well if he had gone to therapy at one point, but he didn’t. But there are a couple different people and I’d say, I’m so sorry your parents didn’t hug you enough as a child, but they’re dead. So let’s move.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Right. Right.
Kara Swisher: Let’s see where we can go from here. And so that’s not an excuse. It’s an explanation, right?
Nicolle Wallace: That’s all I have to report.
Kara Swisher: Right? Right, right.
Nicolle Wallace: Because here we are.
Kara Swisher: Right. In some places, people are just bad people.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: They’re just —
Nicolle Wallace: Is he a bad person?
Kara Swisher: No. No. He wasn’t. I will tell, he definitely had problems from the get with stuff around racism. His family history is really quite fraught with racial issues in South Africa and his grandfather.
Nicolle Wallace: Just tell me the basics of it because I —
Kara Swisher: His grandfather was so anti-Semitic, he got kicked out of Canada to go to South Africa. You know what I mean? His grandfather was an absolute dead, active, professional anti-Semite and racist. He was absolutely. Now, again, that’s his grandfather. He never met him really.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: I think he was a toddler when his grandfather died. But there’s the history of it. Like, we escape our history, but at the same time, it’s something we need to acknowledge, right, as we move forward. He was raised by a very difficult father. I don’t think the mother was any walk in the park either, by the way. They always focus on the father, but my feeling is they’re all feral, essentially. And I think that he had a bunch of trauma when he was younger. He says bullying. I don’t know. It never has been reported out, but that’s what he and his family say.
And so I think he had a lot of trauma, and then he has autism issues. And he’s a creative person who’s very deeply enmeshed in science fiction, whether we’re in a simulation or not, very creative in risk taking.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think he thinks that we’re in a simulation?
Kara Swisher: He told me that. Yes, he’s told me that on stage. He said it’s a nonzero possibility. That’s their favorite expression, that this is all some alien race that is playing a video game. I mean, I often look at Elon in terms of video games, right? He loves video games even if he cheats at them apparently according to other gamers, to give himself more purchase. And that’s all about not being loved enough if you have to push yourself out there, right, essentially. But one of the things that I’ve always thought that he’s in a video game and he’s the central player.
If you play video games, there’s a central player, and everyone else is a non-player character. That’s how I look at what he thinks. And so he’s the “Ready Player One,’ and that’s it. I think he started off as someone who was trying to do really interesting things, and one of the things that attracted me to him was you had all these tech people that were making another dating service or a digital dry cleaning. Kara, we’re doing digital dry cleaning. I’m like, I’m going to kill myself if I have to talk to you, right? And so he was doing, like, cars.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: That was cool.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, I really did believe in the issues around fossil fuels. He was doing space. I actually believe we do need to be a multi-planetary species because if we’re just going to rely on this planet, someday, we will not exist. Makes sense. And so all this stuff he was doing, energy was interesting. Even the stuff that was kind of wacky like the Hyperloop, I’m like, interesting, right? At least you’re thinking of things that are interesting even if some of it is just nonsense and just vaporware, essentially. I didn’t care. I was like, these are good, interesting, big ideas.
And so what what’s interesting about him is that he was on that train. And then as he got wealthier, as he got more acclaim, as people sucked up to them, as inevitably happens with rich people or famous people, rich people now, he started to believe his own nonsense and became overly dramatic. At one point, we did an interview where he said if0 Tesla doesn’t survive, humanity is doomed to me, and I was like, are you fucking kidding me? No. Like, you could die and there’ll be another car company. But he was in this megalomaniac kind of zone.
And, very dramatic. I have to sleep on the factory floor, which I was like, there’s a hotel next door. Why do you need to do that? But just like he was living in this kind of —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher:– weird dramatic fantasy. And it helps you if you’re an entrepreneur be like that, be sort of suspend disbelief, essentially. And he was like that. And then COVID, I have to say, did a number on him mentally.
Nicolle Wallace: Why?
Kara Swisher: No idea. It did to a number on a lot of people mentally, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: So, some people react to certain things. I think the isolation. I think he already had a proclivity for taking credit for things he didn’t do or wanting to be at the center of attention and look at me, which to me always stems from parenting. I just feel like it does. I think that he started using drugs quite a bit. I think that’s been well reported, especially ketamine. And if you’ve ever taken it, which I did, it’s a very dissociative drug. I hated it. I only took it to understand. I’ve never felt more alone in my life. Not lonely, alone. Like, oh my god. I’m completely alone, you know, when you’re sitting outside and look at the stars for five minutes, you’re like, I’m alone in the universe.
This is an extended version of that, essentially. And I think the one that I recall with Elon was when they didn’t invite him to that summit, that car summit.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, the car.
Kara Swisher: And I heard an earful from him, a lot. It was also, I was like, calm the fuck down, dude. Like, you didn’t get invited —
Nicolle Wallace: From one of them, Yes.
Kara Swisher: — because of unions, because of his union hostilities —
Nicolle Wallace: — Right, right.
Kara Swisher: — is terrible hostility unions. And so as he was getting more megalomaniacal moving more into the drugs, getting more attention as a rich person, escaping reality that most people live in, that happened. And I think because he’s such a petty person, that really got under his skin. And later, I remember talking to people in the bar. I was like, oh, that wasn’t good. You need to bear hug that guy, like, right away. But then he started going down lunatic highway at Nancy Pelosi’s husband when he got attacked.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: He retweeted very heinous. And then I was like, oh, fuck you. Like, are you kidding me? You bought this thing. I refuse to let you do this. And then it continued with racist stuff and anti-Semitic stuff and the wink and a nod kind of stuff. He didn’t even have the guts to be that way. Like, I don’t have any respect for those people, but at least they have the guts to say they are terrible, heinous things. He was like, interesting, concerning, (inaudible) while retweeting a bunch of really nonsensical —
Nicolle Wallace: Vile thing.
Kara Swisher: — vile things. And to me, that makes you a coward. Like, at least if you’re going to be that way, be that way. And so he did that.
Nicolle Wallace: So you understand that Trump —
Kara Swisher: Oh, what’s he doing with the government?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: I think he has a thing in his head that he has this narrative in his head that the government is terrible.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: We can all agree government needs reform for the past, I don’t know, million years.
Nicolle Wallace: But the federal workforce is the one that was —
Kara Swisher: Which turns out to be pretty good.
Nicolle Wallace: — the most from efficiencies, and they would appreciate the efficiency from (inaudible).
Kara Swisher: Well, that’s what he’s proven here. He can’t find fraud.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: He can’t find much fraud.
Nicolle Wallace: Just like Trump can’t find the people who are adjudicated criminals to deport through his —
Kara Swisher: Correct. That’s right.
Nicolle Wallace: He like (inaudible).
Kara Swisher: Right. He had to, like, dig them up, and they’re usually hardworking people. And one of the things I think that it’s shown is that we run a pretty good government, and the only way to really cut things is to deal with health care. Let’s be honest. Scott was telling me this. He says if you tagged all the richest people in the world correctly, it still wouldn’t matter. It’s a drop in the frigging bucket.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: We have to deal with health care, the expense of health care, even defense spending. Expensive health. We pay double the amount that everyone else does, and our government is in debt because of it. Reforming health care would go a long way, but that’s too hard.
Nicolle Wallace: That’s really hard.
Kara Swisher: So it’s just easier —
Nicolle Wallace: I know he wants to do it because —
Kara Swisher: It’s easier to wield the chainsaw and —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — scream at your dad and go after and he went after things. I’ll tell you, that we’re regulating him for the first time.
Nicolle Wallace: USAID.
Kara Swisher: And so, of course, it’s all in his self-interest.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, it’s always him. Yes.
Kara Swisher: And that’s the same with all these guys.
Nicolle Wallace: You have four kids. I think I had my feelings about the election. I was pretty crushed to see Trump win after January 6 and after being convicted. But I think I was most sad that my son is now 13.
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: The first time Trump was there, he’s sort of oblivious to it. But this time, like, he’ll be 17 when he leaves office.
Kara Swisher: This is their era, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Right. And so I feel like in this the second Trump presidency, it’s not to be endured. We have to find a way to sort of thrive and make the most of it, but how do you talk to your kids about Trump?
Kara Swisher: I have two different sets of kids.
Nicolle Wallace: I know.
Kara Swisher: I’m a straight white man, so I’ve had my second family. And I have older kids. Trump is all they know, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I mean, they sort of know Obama. My ex-wife worked in the Obama White House, so they were old enough to understand the Obama era. But largely, it’s a lot been Trump, with a Biden moment in between. And so I think, I do watch them a lot, and I find I am more heartened by younger people than older. I think the problem we have is people 30 to 50. They need to shut the fuck up and just calm the fuck down. All of them, the right and the left, right? Like, calm the fuck down. Because they’re always on Twitter. They’re always doom scrolling. Younger people have a much less frantic attitude, they do. And so I do feel better when I talk to my kids.
But I do think we have to make them feel that one, government works for them —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — that they have respect for government, that there are heroes, that there are people that are heroes, that this idea of get while the getting’s good is not —
Nicolle Wallace: Who are the heroes?
Kara Swisher: For me, there’s so many. There’s all kinds of heroes. I mean, I think average people are the heroes, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, the average people are the heroes and we spend too much time in this celebrity culture. Although, I do think, like, someone like some musicians are so incredibly beautiful the way they do stuff. My kids listen to a lot of hip-hop and stuff like that and explain it to me. And I then I see it. I’m like, oh, this is —
Nicolle Wallace: My son does the thing on Spotify where he shows me the lyric —
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: — and tells me the story. Like, it’s like an important story.
Kara Swisher: Right. Exactly.
Nicolle Wallace: And I think, like, parents judging. I refuse to ever judge his music choice. Sometimes I don’t want to play it out loud around my mind, but —
Kara Swisher: Oh, I’m not judging. My music choice is terrible. They have incredibly good taste, right?
Nicolle Wallace: They have good taste, yes.
Kara Swisher: One time my son was using my Spotify and someone saw it and said, you have great taste. I’m like, it’s not mine.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s like, yes, my son has better taste.
Kara Swisher: They were doing that. So I don’t know. I think there’s a lot of heroes. I think your parents should be your heroes, right? I think, ultimately, one of the things that I think is lost is a community aspect. At one point, my son was looking at his phone. I used to make them put them down.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And he goes, there’s just one more thing. I go, there’s always one more thing on this thing. I said, it’s an endless supply of information. It’s addictive. You can’t not use it because it’s important for social. It’s important for your job, and it’s everywhere. It’s ubiquitous. And so it’s like a drug. It’s like the only other industry that says the word user is the drug industry, right? Users who use your phone.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: I spent a lot of time doing with them is them trying to pick their head up and look around. And I think I’ve been pushing really hard for schools to take phones out of schools, for example. Everyone’s like, that’s so conservative of you. I’m like, no, it isn’t. It’s an addictive thing. You can’t physically look away from it. And so I spent a lot of time talking about that. There was a movie. I think it was Barry Levinson. I’m not sure. It was a big ethnic family that was in Baltimore, and they did everything together and picnics and various things. But as the movie got later, the television entered the scene, and there was a scene of them all watching television eating dinner. And then he pulled out, and then there’s just the blue glow.
And I remember thinking, that’s what this is, right? Is it even more immersive experience? And as we get into AI, we get into robotics, we get into vision, which is you’re going to have. We will isolate from each other in a way. And so I spent a lot of time talking about that with my kids.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think those innovations are good? Are they bad? Does it not matter? We just have to put them in —
Kara Swisher: It doesn’t matter.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Right.
Nicolle Wallace: They’re coming.
Kara Swisher: Like, it’s coming. It’s coming.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: But you have to understand the addictive nature of them. And, again, when something’s addictive and necessary, that’s the real the rub. And it can be either a tool or a weapon, you’re kind of fucked, right? Because —
Nicolle Wallace: And how do you teach a kid? I mean, we wouldn’t let kids smoke one cigarette. I mean, like, for your littles, what are your screen (inaudible)?
Kara Swisher: Oh, “Frozen.” Then there’s “Moana.”
Nicolle Wallace: You have “Frozen.” I know. Then they wake up.
Kara Swisher: And then there’s “Frozen.”
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. And “Sing?”
Kara Swisher: Then there’s “Frozen 3.” “Frozen 3” is coming.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you have “Sing” yet? “Sing 1” and “Sing 2.”
Kara Swisher: They don’t like “Sing.” They do —
Nicolle Wallace: Really?
Kara Swisher: Now it’s “Paw Patrol,” which is upsetting me because that sucks.
Nicolle Wallace: Oh, we’re a big “Sing” and “Pets Unlimited.”
Kara Swisher: Yes, a lot of it. We only let them use it for —
Nicolle Wallace: (Inaudible).
Kara Swisher: It’s just the way you consume TV.
Nicolle Wallace:Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, kind of stuff.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And I don’t mind it. I mean, just —
Nicolle Wallace: No, I mean, I do. I have a one and a half year old that we watch movies.
Kara Swisher: I mean, just (inaudible), like, talk about addictive.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: When you go to the supermarket now, they have products that are “Frozen” products.
Nicolle Wallace: Oh, I know. I have them all. Yes.
Kara Swisher: So they have “Frozen” frozen yogurt.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Kara Swisher: Right? Okay. And my daughter has to have it, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Has to have it. And every time I take a picture there was “Frozen” string cheese the other day.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Of course, I had to buy it. I mean, I don’t have to, but I do.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And I take a picture, and I send it to (inaudible) where I’m like, fuck you. Fuck you. And he’s like, hahaha, I’ve got you again.
Nicolle Wallace: Everywhere.
Kara Swisher: But it’s hard because they love it.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And especially because listen, even with adults, TV has gotten really good. Talking about something that used to be the boob tube —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — is now the intelligent tube, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Right.
Kara Swisher: TV shows are astonishing.
Nicolle Wallace: They’re incredible.
Kara Swisher: Right? They’re incredible, actually.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so, I look at that in a good way. Like, there’s some amazing stuff that art is happening on TV now.
Nicolle Wallace: Are you, I mean, you laid out tech has all this power.
Kara Swisher: They do.
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, the —
Kara Swisher:I’m worried.
Nicolle Wallace: — the image of inauguration with all of them on the stage was just, like, harrowing to me.
Kara Swisher: It was.
Nicolle Wallace: And, like, if you know what it’s supposed to look like, the idea that, like the richest people in the world.
Kara Swisher: All those guys were looking out at us, like —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Well, Trump did that on purpose.
Nicolle Wallace: Of course he did.
Kara Swisher: I mean, he’s brilliant. In that way, it was interesting because what that was showing was Trump showing I think he purposely wanted to be inside, so that would be the visual, right?
Nicolle Wallace: I’m sure.
Kara Swisher: That he had the richest people in the world at his beck and call. Now what I think he doesn’t get, because he’s a grifter. He gets this, right? They too want the things they want. And so they were there to get as they did in the first Trump administration when they wandered up to Trump Tower for that meeting, which I broke that story when they did that. And they did it in kind of a sneaky way where they didn’t talk about immigration. They just wanted their tax breaks. They have the same set of things, and this time is for AI. They want they want a hegemony in AI, and they want no restrictions in AI, cryptocurrency, and a number of other tax related things.
Nicolle Wallace: And he’ll give it to them.
Kara Swisher: He is giving it to them right now. Everyone has a different thing they want. Bezos would like the investigations to go away about their pricing power. Apple would like the investigation. Google has already lost two cases, and so that looks like it’s headed. I don’t think Trump can do much about those. But they all want a different thing. And largely, right now, cryptocurrency aside, because that’s obviously, the Trump family is using that to give themselves payments secretly, is AI. Who’s going to dominate in AI? And the government will have a significant part because there are national security implications. And so they’re all there in a next big competition. And so it makes utter sense that they’re there for that.
And Musk wants to go to Mars, and he’s getting that. That’s what he want, and he really does. And that is, to me, his ultimate goal was that and to get the regulators off his back. It’s not that it’s helped Tesla in any way, and that’s going to help. Tesla’s going down right now.
Nicolle Wallace: Do you think so?
Kara Swisher: Oh, Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And it stops being viable.
Kara Swisher: Well, I always say the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers. I mean, they were a true pioneer in the space. I think the reason even though he blames these protests and this and that and his stupid, I mean, he brought this on himself —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — FYI, these protests. So stop blaming the protesters just to —
Nicolle Wallace: Well, then the Gates’ criticism is so biting the world’s richest man killing the world’s poorest children.
Kara Swisher: Well, yes. Right. That was amazing. I’ll tell you about that in a second. But the first amendment stuff he’s talking about is nonsense. That’s not what they believe in. They want a thing.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so I always look at the things they want, and Trump will give it to them. And in AI, it’s critical that they have no federal regulation in an area that absolutely needs federal and global regulation. This is like we’re in the dawn of the nuclear age, and the private companies are going to decide what nuclear bombs are.
Nicolle Wallace: They’re going to make their own nukes and store them.
Kara Swisher: That’s what this is.
Nicolle Wallace: That’s where we’re headed.
Kara Swisher: So we are in a really critical and Trump will give them carte blanche to do all these things.
Nicolle Wallace: Will Trump give them carte blanche because it’s a transaction that benefits him or because he doesn’t understand?
Kara Swisher: Both. I think both. I think he understands what it means. I think he understands —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes?
Kara Swisher: Yes, sure. Because I think, intuitively, he’s got a lizard mentality, right? He’s got that lizard brain, so he kind of sees where the power is. I mean, of course, he’s over in crypto. That’s where the scammers are.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: He gets that.
Nicolle Wallace: He’s got his own brand.
Kara Swisher: Scott was saying, in scamming, he is Marco Corleone, and in governing, he’s Fredo.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. It’s a great line.
Kara Swisher: Which you wish you have Michael Corleone on the government.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Kara Swisher: But I think he does understand. The government will be critical to understanding and how we react with China and how much regulation there is, but they want unfettered, which is a real mistake because all our great innovations have been made through a public private partnership along with universities. So Trump’s attacking universities where the Internet was invented, AI was invented.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: That’s the real problem here.
Nicolle Wallace: And the smartest scientists and —
Kara Swisher: These private companies will only do things for shareholder value. And, honestly, they should. That’s their job. They don’t have to save our world. But that means everything will be done for shareholder value, and that’s a prescription for disaster for most of humanity.
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Nicolle Wallace: We’ll be right back with more from Kara Swisher. Stay right here.
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Nicolle Wallace: Do you walk around this planet feeling more scared or more optimistic?
Kara Swisher: I’m a student of history. I think we’ve gone through these things. I mean, especially Americans, do you remember the whiskey rebellion? We almost ended on that. We almost ended on Huey Long. We almost ended on McCarthy.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: We have been through, especially, I would recommend Rachel’s book “Prequel” because it’s all the same thing.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, it’s the same lunatics who mess up trials and yell and senators that are bought and paid for by the Nazis in that case.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so you sort of are like, we keep doing this. We’re so suicidal as a nation in some ways. And then we pull it out kind of thing with innovation, with excitement, with going somewhere. But this guy is really doing a number on democracy. He’s stressing the system, and it’s held up in many good ways right? With the courts —
Nicolle Wallace: The judges.
Kara Swisher: — the judges. But pushing it towards violence is something I do worry about. The slight shove towards violence. And I do think that is an opportunity for the Democrats to stop. They have to start saying what they are, like, what they’re for. And I think that what’s interesting to me is that Trump’s numbers are really low, but the Democrats are really low. This is like, are you kidding me? This guy is on the ropes, and this is where the Democrats are.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. I mean, politics used to be about zero sum, right? One went up and one went down. Our politics are now like just —
Kara Swisher: They don’t like anybody.
Nicolle Wallace: — are just zero, zero.
Kara Swisher: Zero, zero.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: So why not start to say again, it’s this risk takingness that the Democrats don’t have.
Nicolle Wallace: The authenticity.
Kara Swisher: The authenticity and the risk like, do a $25 minimum wage. So what if it doesn’t pass? Say it and make it D4 —
Nicolle Wallace: D4, which you’re for.
Kara Swisher: D4, which you’re for and so true. And there are a few politicians like that.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: There’s a number of them.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Who? Who do you like?
Kara Swisher: I’ve always trying to get Mark Cuban to run for president, won’t do it.
Nicolle Wallace: I agree. Why? Why won’t he do it?
Kara Swisher: I don’t know why. I’m like, why am I backing another billionaire? I don’t know why. Because he has some money.
Nicolle Wallace: He’s a great communicator.
Kara Swisher: He’s got a great communication.
Nicolle Wallace: I appreciate how he communicates.
Kara Swisher: He’s compared to a lot of people I’ve covered. He was such a jerk when he was younger. He and I used to be and I was like, you’re such a jerk. Like, you arrogant prick, essentially. And he’s evolved.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I like a person who’s evolved.
Nicolle Wallace: He’s a great guy.
Kara Swisher: He’s evolved. He’s always thinking about things, and now he’s thinking about solutions. I think Gates is someone I never got along with. I can’t believe it. And, literally, I was like, you’re an awful, like, at one point when my partner was interviewing Melinda Gates on stage, we were backstage, and she was so great. I was like, you know what? I like you 10% more and that you’re married to her. And I was married to someone he liked and he’s like, I like you 10% more. And he goes, where are we at then? I go 10%. But he has really evolved. He had said that to me earlier this year about Musk when he was cutting USAID.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: He was very upset because he has shifted and dedicated his life —
Nicolle Wallace: (Inaudible) as well.
Kara Swisher: — to really helping people.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, really, truly.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: He’s like Andrew Carnegie situation here.
Nicolle Wallace: And Gates has been on the ground in Africa for a decade.
Kara Swisher: A 100k [ph]. Well, what happened was —
Nicolle Wallace: Decade.
Kara Swisher: — he was really anti-government. When I first met him —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — he was government sucks. And then he went there, and he saw the complexity of it. And he saw the things, and then he started to appreciate some of government. Some of it doesn’t work, some of it does. Life is complex because that’s what an adult does. And he said that something, a version of that to me backstage in an event I did with him when he did his Netflix documentary. And I said, why don’t you fucking say that in public?
Nicolle Wallace: Why don’t they? I mean, he finally did —
Kara Swisher: Well, because —
Nicolle Wallace: But what are they afraid of?
Kara Swisher: — I think they’re afraid. He already had been attacked for COVID for vaccines.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Remember, he was putting vaccines —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: — and he was attacked personally.
Nicolle Wallace: And people (inaudible) or something.
Kara Swisher: All these plots and shit like that. So he got a lot of income. Even if you’re one of the world’s richest people, it’s terrifying when you have all that hate aimed at you. I don’t know. I think he thought we’re still in the same old system where —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher:– you don’t talk dirty of the other people.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Stay above the fray.
Kara Swisher: And I said you need to say that publicly.
Nicolle Wallace: Correct.
Kara Swisher: And I think he got around to it and he’s like, I’m sick of this shit. And I think Melinda was saying it, and so he was a little competitive. She was saying it clear —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — because all the women say it clearly.
Nicolle Wallace: Right, right, right.
Kara Swisher: Whether it’s Lorraine Jobs backing the Atlantic or Mackenzie Bezos just giving away the money. The women are really of tech —
Nicolle Wallace: They’re out there.
Kara Swisher: They’re out there doing the actual thing. That’s why I think he was like, why am I not saying it?
Nicolle Wallace: Are you looking at “The Post” and (inaudible) “The Post?”
Kara Swisher: I was, yes. I am.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I could raise some money easily.
Nicolle Wallace: I know.
Kara Swisher: Very easily. There are good billionaires out there.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I mean, I don’t even have to go very far to go down the stack, but, he doesn’t want to sell it. He doesn’t want to sell it. I don’t know what to say. You can’t buy something someone doesn’t want to sell. And so I have a vision for it and —
Nicolle Wallace: What’s the vision?
Kara Swisher: It’s about creating a national newspaper in a different way, in a new digital way that takes from all across the country. I think there’s so much really interesting entrepreneurial journalism going on across the country, all these little startups and journalism.
Nicolle Wallace: Like a Substack newspaper, almost.
Kara Swisher: Except with taste. I’m sorry.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Right. Curated.
Kara Swisher: I’m not a fan of platforming Nazis. I don’t care. You can do it if you want, but I wouldn’t.
Nicolle Wallace: Right. Or was this philosophy, a pro-democracy philosophy?
Kara Swisher: Philosophy is pro democracy. He’s like, we’re for free markets. I’m for democracy. That’s what we’re for.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I think democracy dies in the full light of day, not in darkness.
Nicolle Wallace: Me too.
Kara Swisher: And so I have an idea of using “The Post” as a vessel and bringing in the things that these people need right now, say podcasters or there’s all these websites and news organizations starting in, like, Mississippi and Louisiana. They’re doing amazing jobs. They’re nonprofits, most of them. And why not give them audiences and coalesce the things they need, and everyone’s doing artisanal, is audience, advertising, help with video, YouTube strategy. Everyone’s doing it on their own, but there’s a need first. It’s sort of the opposite of the “New York Times” approach.
“New York Times,” everything is baked here in our beautiful, artisanal bakery that you love. Well, why not help everybody else? Like just think of it like stone soup. That’s what I call my project, stone soup. Like —
Nicolle Wallace: I love that.
Kara Swisher: — let’s create that and use “The Post” as the vehicle because there’s very few national things. Why not use that as the vehicle? Have a great layer of great journalism on the top. Not heavy, very thin, and then go all around and pull it in. And through AI, really, you can build your own newspaper of what you want and what your needs are and sort of beat them at their own game because you have taste and you have editorial taste.
Nicolle Wallace: Like, platforming the point of view and the quality —
Kara Swisher: All over. Whatever you want.
Nicolle Wallace: — the outsourcing the work, the journalism.
Kara Swisher: But have the level of editorial taste —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — and discretion.
Nicolle Wallace: Collaboration.
Kara Swisher: And smartness where you —
Nicolle Wallace: That’s great.
Kara Swisher: — we’re not going to do that. We’re not going to let anyone say what they want. We’re going to have smart discussions and you would do it like a lot of companies have also have to own everything. Like, I want to own my stuff, and so do a lot of entrepreneurial journalists and media organizations. Why not let them own it? And I’ll take 30%, I’ll sell your advertising. I’ll give you legal protection. I’ll give you this. I’ll give you that. The idea I had “The Post,” which I thought was a good one, was Katharine Graham. Remember her tit was caught in a ringer? Remember when they threatened her?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I was going to create the Ringer Foundation —
Nicolle Wallace: That’s awesome.
Kara Swisher: — and fund all these things.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And then say, everybody, we’re going to create an insurance company for media companies now to push back and sue these fuckers that are doing these nonsense lawsuits at media companies.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Okay, you want to sue us? We’re going to sue you.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: We’re going to sue you back. We’re going to protect, Times versus Sullivan. We’re going to bring in the best First Amendment lawyers. You think you’re going to win this? Like, I think one of the things that doesn’t happen is we sort of sit here and react to their aggression. I can punch someone in the nose just the same kind of thing. And so I think you could use something like “The Post” to create a whole new kind of media organization.
Nicolle Wallace: Media company, yes.
Kara Swisher: And you have to figure out the costs because one of the things I have done is everything I’ve made has made a profit. So you have to sort of start to think of journalism as not a church. It either has to be owned by billionaires or be a nonprofit. It can’t be a business. And so we need entrepreneurial media figures around to try to figure that out. And I don’t know. I feel like we can do it.
Nicolle Wallace: I can’t wait to see that.
Kara Swisher: Well, we’ll see. He’s not selling that.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: If Jeff Bezos doesn’t want to sell me his container, I will find another container.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: I think he’s a terrible owner at this point. I’ve never liked him personally. I think he’s always been a difficult person. He was a Wall Street guy to start with. Everyone sort of got fooled into thinking he was this liberal icon. He was —
Nicolle Wallace: He liked books.
Kara Swisher: He never was.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: He was a Wall Street guy.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Like, let’s be clear. And now he’s with the person he wants to, the life he wants to live —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — which is very, like, glamorous. Whatever. All power to his —
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: — astonishing midlife crisis, but, which it is, right? Come on. It’s amazing. Let me tell you. I never saw those muscles on that (inaudible).
Nicolle Wallace: I was about to say the muscles are amazing.
Kara Swisher: Well, you have to like people, like, don’t talk about their looks. I’m like, but he’s saying something with his physical.
Nicolle Wallace: Well, you also can’t hide from it. It’s like all of it.
Kara Swisher: But he’s saying something —
Nicolle Wallace: And it’s all over the social media. He wants us to put it out there.
Kara Swisher: Also, they could see it.
Nicolle Wallace: I know.
Kara Swisher: Someone’s like, you shouldn’t talk about this. I’m like, literally, the man is putting out pictures and then a tight T-shirt.
Nicolle Wallace: Correct.
Kara Swisher: I can talk about it.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: So, he should do that. I just don’t think he’s the correct owner for what is —
Nicolle Wallace: At least not at this moment.
Kara Swisher: And I’m not romantic about the “Washington Post” either.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: But I grew up there, and I worked for Ben Bradlee. I worked for Katharine Graham. And I got to tell you, that was a magical time, and I’m not nostalgic for it. I just think the reason they succeeded is because they were providing a great product at the right time for the right people for the right prices.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s so sad that all those great journalists have fled.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, that to me from the outside is just such a sad song.
Kara Swisher: Yes. Well, I can talk to everyone as they leave.
Nicolle Wallace: I know.
Kara Swisher: I feel like I’m the exit interview for “Washington Post.”
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, sure. Well, everyone wants to know what they should do next.
Kara Swisher: Let me tell you something. Of all the people that left, none of them wanted to leave.
Nicolle Wallace: I’m sure not.
Kara Swisher: That was remarkable to me.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: They had all these offers, very talented people, but they love that institution.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: So I do too. I started in the mailroom.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, me too. Yes. What do you advise us to do as we sort of are in our opening —
Kara Swisher: You’re going off.
Nicolle Wallace: — our opening inning here.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: And as a —
Kara Swisher: Well, I think it’s an opportunity. Like, I heard a lot of bellyaching like, oh, my god. What are you going to do? First of all, you made a lot of money, and that profit used to go over to the mothership all the time, right? You didn’t get to use it. You made a lot of money. It’s a declining thing, that is true. But you still make a lot of money. What are you going to do with that money? It gives you an opportunity to be entrepreneurial. And I remember saying to someone, stop your fucking bellyaching. You have an opportunity to make things. You have an opportunity to win or lose, essentially, because you can now have your own destiny. I know we’re in a post-fact society, but we really aren’t.
And so if you have great reporters and you keep coming in, like, as I said, Wired has been astonishing reporting on DOGE.
Nicolle Wallace: Incredible.
Kara Swisher: They can’t escape the truth.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: And so if you do it fairly —
Nicolle Wallace: And people still want it.
Kara Swisher: That’s correct.
Nicolle Wallace: We’ve also got, like, a surge of —
Kara Swisher: That’s correct.
Nicolle Wallace: I was reading their new numbers. I mean, like, people can’t get enough of that.
Kara Swisher: That’s right. You guys are going up, but not everybody.
Nicolle Wallace: And “Wall Street Journal.” I mean, they’ve done incredible reporting on the Trump story.
Kara Swisher: Yes, that’s right.
Nicolle Wallace: Sort of an unexpected amount. Yes.
Kara Swisher: So, I’m saying if they can do it, why can’t we? And that’s what I would say. But I always think, like, people always, like, how do you think of your product? I’m like, what am I making today?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Do I like making it? Because if I don’t, I’m going to stop.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Two, what am I making? What am I going to make? I think of it like a chef. Like, what am I making today?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And what are the ingredients that are going into it?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And you have an opportunity to make, what are you going to do?
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And I think that’s the best thing you have going for it. And plus, you already make money. You do have this legacy business that is declining cable. Well, okay. Now what? Streaming?
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: What are you going to do? You make a streaming thing? Are you going to partner with people? Are you going to buy things? Are you going to, like, stop acting like it’s the end times, right?
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: That to me is a prescription for failure. And sorry things have changed, but my friends, they’ve changed. And AI is going to change it some more. So how can you use AI?
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: Like, so many people around us I talk to don’t use AI. I’m like, what is your fucking problem?
Nicolle Wallace: What would we use AI for?
Kara Swisher: Everything.
Nicolle Wallace: Everything?
Kara Swisher: It’s everything. Like, when the Internet first started, I covered it early, and I did see it early. I remember standing in front of, there was a teletype machine that went (inaudible) —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And you’d pull the news off and then you go type it.
Nicolle Wallace: had the wire, yes.
Kara Swisher: Right. But I used to stare at that fucking teletype machine. I’m like, you need to take this out of here or, like, make it into, like, a coffee urn or something because we’re not using this anywhere. Everything’s on there.
Nicolle Wallace: On the computer. Yes, Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: And you’re like, well, it’s important. I’m like, no.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s not.
Kara Swisher: I used to obsess on it. They just say, what is your problem? I was like, I want to take a hammer —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: — and break it because I was like, that is not the future.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s old, yes.
Kara Swisher: It’s old. And I didn’t do it. I didn’t do it. But I was always like, you have to keep leaning into really, so the Internet. When it first started, I put my e-mail on my stories. And all the reports are like, why do you want readers to talk to you? I’m like, because they’re smarter than you are. That’s for fucking sure. And second, so then I would get feedback from people. I didn’t listen to it all the time.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: They knew what they like.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Yes.
Kara Swisher: They got to hear from you.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Yes.
Kara Swisher: That’s like we began our conversation.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: The second thing is someone said, what’s the Internet to me when it first started? This is in the early ‘90s, right? And I said, it’s everything. And they’re like, what are you talking about? I said, what’s the world? It’s this. It’s that. It’s you. It’s my face. It’s everything.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: So what are you going to do with it? And like, what do you mean everything? It doesn’t matter what it is. It’s —
Nicolle Wallace: It’s everything.
Kara Swisher: — everything.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: It’s everything.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s everything you could think of.
Kara Swisher: And so you should use it. She started asking it questions.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes, Yes.
Kara Swisher: What it is, is essentially the version of it is, is now the Internet you used to go search for things just like you used to search in a circuit city for a TV.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: But now then Amazon made it so it came to you through algorithmic search, right? It’s the same thing. Google used to go find it, and then you go down into the website and then find it, find it, find it. Now, it brings it to you.
Nicolle Wallace: It spits out to you, yes.
Kara Swisher: It spits out to you.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: And it’s broken a little bit now —
Nicolle Wallace: It’s good.
Kara Swisher: — but it’s getting better.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: It’s getting better and better as humanity is getting worse and worse. And just like I said at the beginning with Google, it is us.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: It is us is what it is, and it will start giving you things. I said, come up with a logo. Five seconds. This is what I want it to look like. This is what I wanted to say. Now people are like, oh, you put all these graphic people out of business. Yes, unfortunately. I feel slightly badly, but the fact of the matter is, like, someone was saying that to me, like, oh, you put a graph out (ph). I said, do you feel bad eating that fucking carrot that was made by mechanized farming? You’re thinking about all the farmers you put out, I think? Like, our world changes.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: We have to get great jobs for those people. So if you’re doing, like, Aurora is an autonomous trucking. Oh, it’s going to end up for trucking. First of all, we don’t have enough truckers. Two, it’s an incredibly dangerous job. People shouldn’t be doing trucking 24 hours a day because they can’t do it. These cars just keep going. Why not create jobs at hubs in cities —
Nicolle Wallace:Right.
Kara Swisher: — and then send trucks into the city.
Nicolle Wallace: Dispatch, Yes.
Kara Swisher: It’s not just dispatch.
Nicolle Wallace: Don’t (inaudible).
Kara Swisher: You can’t bring the autonomous trucks into cities. So have people bring them in.
Nicolle Wallace: Right.
Kara Swisher: Then people can live near their homes and have better lives. Like, start to be fucking creative about what you’re doing. And so with AI, use it every day. Once you use it, just like the Internet, when people were using it, then they got it. Then you’re like, oh.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, wow. Nice.
Kara Swisher: Once you start using it, you will understand it completely. It is so intuitively easy to figure out once you get it. There’s a huge amount of danger too about what it could do, but there’s also a huge amount of good things to do. Cancer research, drug discovery, drug interaction, like, kills a lot of people. Diagnostics.
Nicolle Wallace: To your point about health care, I mean, there’s a lot of interesting health care stuff.
Kara Swisher: Totally. So use it. Use it.
Nicolle Wallace: We love getting to talk to you. Will you come back?
Kara Swisher: Yes. Anytime.
Nicolle Wallace: Okay.
Kara Swisher: I’m not the best at anything else. I’m the best at going to a hardware store. I’m good at that.
Nicolle Wallace: Why?
Kara Swisher: Because I love hardware store.
Nicolle Wallace: I like hardware stores too.
Kara Swisher: Love them.
Nicolle Wallace: I like, like a —
Kara Swisher: They’re my church. I love them.
Nicolle Wallace:I like, like a small local. Are you like a —
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: — a Home Depot or are you like a neighborhood —
Kara Swisher: Cliff’s in San Francisco is the best hardware store in America.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, Yes. On the Upper West Side, there’s a great one on Amsterdam in the ‘70s.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: We just walk up and down.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: In the winter they have sleds and in the summer they have sunscreen.
Kara Swisher: It’s like, what is, like, tools? I’m like, what is that? And we are such a creative. Tools are so creative.
Nicolle Wallace: I’m like, all the, I mean, Yes.
Kara Swisher: The little shit. And it’s delightful. So, we can do a hardware store —
Nicolle Wallace: Yes, we could do a hardware store, too.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Otherwise, I’m not an expert. I’m a good parent. We can talk about parenting someday.
Nicolle Wallace: I heard you’re a great parent.
Kara Swisher: I am a great parent.
Nicolle Wallace: That’s an important thing.
Kara Swisher: Kara Swisher: You know what I don’t do? I don’t say my kids suck. That’s the one thing.
Nicolle Wallace: I love my kids so much.
Kara Swisher: I know.
Nicolle Wallace: And I feel like I love them more every day in a way that, like, is almost like, makes my heart hurt.
Kara Swisher: Yes. But they’re great. One of the things friend of mine, they were, like, bellyaching about their kids or something like that. And they’re like, how are your kids? I go, my kids are great. And they’re like, well, you know, kids are difficult. I’m like, they’re really not.
Nicolle Wallace: They’re not.
Kara Swisher: I’ll tell you what’s difficult, 10 other things. Not my kids.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes. Yes.
Kara Swisher: And so.
Nicolle Wallace: And 10,000 (inaudible)–
Kara Swisher: Happy to talk about parenting and I know.
Nicolle Wallace: I know. I —
Kara Swisher: Lesbians should do all the parenting, just so you know.
Nicolle Wallace: They’ll teach all of us how to do.
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: We have the parenting.
Kara Swisher: We have all the beautiful macho men who love women and women who are confident of themselves.
Nicolle Wallace: My son —
Kara Swisher: Should give all the kids to lesbians, and then we’ll give you back the children.
Nicolle Wallace: I mean, I really feel like this is the moment. Thank you so much.
Kara Swisher: Thank you, Nicolle.
Nicolle Wallace: Thank you. The best.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Nicolle Wallace: Thank you so much for listening to “The Best People.” Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcast to get this and all the other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you’ll also get exclusive bonus content that we’re so excited to share with you later in the series. “The Best People” is produced by Vicki Vergolina and senior producer Lisa Ferri, with additional support from Allison Stewart and Max Jacobs. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Pat Burkey is the senior executive producer of “Deadline: White House,” and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. Remember to search for “The Best People with Nicole Wallace” wherever you get your podcast and follow the series.