Time for our mailbag! Join as Chris Hayes and producers Tiffany Champion and Doni Holloway answer your questions and talk about what’s new on the pod. Chris also discusses which interview in 2021 stuck with him the most. And we share an exciting #WITHpod milestone that we need your help to celebrate!
Note: This is a rough transcript — please excuse any typos.
Chris Hayes: Hello, welcome to Why Is This Happening? with me, your host, Chris Hayes. Today is a very special day. Every day is special, and #WITHpod it is a very special day because, well, for a number of reasons. It is the twice annual #WITHpod Mailbag episode. And we have a new special friend guest today.
So if you’re a listener of the podcast, you know that once or twice a year we do a Mailbag episode. We solicit input and emails, tweets, questions, and feedback, compliments which we love from you guys about how great we are, how great the podcast is. And then we just read them (LAUGH) back to you.
It’s good content. And so we do actually that twice a year. I’ve been pushing for, like, every other week. But Tiffany sort of vetoed that. But we have a new person to introduce today who you may know of, who is Doni Holloway. Doni joined us last calendar year in 2021 as a full-time Why Is This Happening? Producer, works on the podcast along with Tiffany who still works on the podcast as well and who is our line producer on the nightly show. So Tiffany and Doni are both here. But Doni, welcome to your first on air appearance on Why Is This Happening? It’s great to have you.
Doni Holloway: Thank you so much, Chris. I have been looking so forward to my #WITHpod debut, and really glad to be a part of a team.
Chris Hayes: And Tiffany, how’re you doin’?
Tiffany Champion: (LAUGH) Oh. Good. No, I’m doing good.
Chris Hayes: You can be honest. Wait, are we gonna violate HIPAA if we talk about the winter that you two have had?
Doni Holloway: (LAUGH) I was thinking about that.
Tiffany Champion: So we had solicited these requests for your emails. We look forward to the Mailbag like Chris said. It’s a great chance for us to talk about the show, to hear what you guys are saying. And so we had planned to do this before the end of the year, and then have this be, like, the kick-off of 2022. We have done all this great stuff in 2021. We have big plans coming up for you. And then your girl got COVID.
Chris Hayes: Your girl got COVID.
Tiffany Champion: So (LAUGH)–
Chris Hayes: No, give us the full context. Because, like, we should all note. All three of us live in New York City. And for people that are New York adjacent, and I think this is true in D.C. and Boston to a certain. But there was, like, a few weeks in December where literally everyone got COVID.
Tiffany Champion: Yes.
Chris Hayes: And it was in that time. But you were not here.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah. So as long-term listeners know, I’m from the Chicago area. And I had planned to drive home for the holidays, like, a week or two before Christmas. And we had an Airbnb. We had all of our normal precautions that we were going to take. And the night before we were set to drive from New York to Chicago, I thought, “I’ve got a bit of a tickle in my throat. This is sort of weird.”
And Omicron hadn’t quite popped yet. It hadn’t started. It wasn’t as big of a thing that we know it is to be now. And so I thought, “You know what? I’ll take a quick rapid test. It’ll be fine.” I took a rapid test, negative. All right, I’m not going to be the person who panics because I have allergies or sinus.
I’ll drive home. Got there, took another test. And it turned out to be COVID. So I spent 14 hours driving across the country, and then spent ten days quarantining in an Airbnb over the holidays. And fortunately my isolation was up in time for my birthday.
I got to see my family just in time for me to turn back around and drive back to New York. And so in that time, we were supposed to record our Mailbag. But I was both exhausted and also emotionally devastated. And I said, “Guys, can we push it off?” So then we pushed it off to the beginning–
Chris Hayes: So we push it off–
Tiffany Champion: –of the year.
Chris Hayes: –to the beginning of the year. And I should note, not to get too up in your business with the listeners, but your partner was with you. You were not alone–
Tiffany Champion: Yeah.
Chris Hayes: Just if people are listening to this, they’re like, “We’ve overdone it.” So your partner’s with you.
Tiffany Champion: Yes.
Chris Hayes: So you had someone kind of tending to you.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah.
Chris Hayes: And you had a pretty, like, gnarly case. I mean, you weren’t hospitalized or anything like that. But, like, it wasn’t just like a sniffle here and there.
Tiffany Champion: No. I was sleeping a lot. I got fatigued very easily. I would get dizzy and lightheaded anytime I was up for two long. I had a really bad cough. I would wake up in the night with a really bad cough. I had headache. Like, it wasn’t fun. And there was also just that added layer of terror of not knowing if you’re gonna wake up and it’s gonna be worse the next day.
Or if this is going to be with you forever. And that psychological aspect that I think write off when they talk about, “Well, everybody’s gonna get it. It’s just gonna be a cold.” But then you get it and it’s scary. It’s really scary. But yes, I had my partner with me.
I had an amazing community response. I don’t want to dwell on this for too long. But just everybody showed up in waves from all across the country. My friend in Portland, Oregon, my friends in New York, friends in Chicago sent so much love and support and sort of saved Christmas for me, honestly. (LAUGH)
Chris Hayes: You were in isolation. So spent Christmas, yeah, right–
Tiffany Champion: Through Christmas. Yes.
Chris Hayes: That’s tough.
Tiffany Champion: Just some random person’s house. And so we had family deliver Christmas decorations. And (LAUGH) Adam’s sister pre-made sugar cookies and then made icing, and then put them in pipettes and had little plastic baggies of sprinkles so that we could still decorate Christmas cookies.
And we decorated the whole place. My mom found my childhood Christmas ornaments that we could put on this big tree. It was wonderful. So I am better now. I’m in New York. I’m thankful to have my health and my family and that community, and to be back here.
Chris Hayes: So you’re back. It’s wonderful to have you back now. I’m gonna introduce the second part of this. And then I will pass the baton to Doni. But I just want to (LAUGH) tell this. And if you don’t want to keep it in, Doni, we could edit it out. But I want to tell this story.
So Tiffany’s back. And we’re gonna do the Mailbag. And we’re setting up the mailbag. And I get a text from Doni the day before we’re gonna record the Jamie Raskin podcast. And Doni will send over a really good, like, prep package where he’s sometimes done a pre-interview.
He’s done, “Here’s some background reading. Here’s some articles and some themes.” If it’s a book, “Here some.” So he sends me this text and he says, “Hey, Chris, is it okay if I send the prep tomorrow. I don’t know what’s going on. It’s really weird. I just feel really tired.
“And I have a headache. And I can’t really move.” And I’m like, literally text back, like, “Doni, (LAUGH) I think you have COVID.” Like, (LAUGH) I’m gonna put two and two together here.” And you were like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah.” And then anyway, so then what happened?
Doni Holloway: Yeah, I remember that. It was the worst I’ve ever felt. I had never felt like that before. I remember I had the headache. My eyes were hurting. I said, “This is different.” When my eyes started hurting, I knew something was up. I mean, the fatigue, everything, the sore throat.
It was the worst night ever. And then the next day or shortly after, I went to go get a test. And it was the weirdest experience ever. So I’m at a testing site. They had at-home test kits at a in-person testing site outside. And they show you how to do it and everything.
I get the result. They turn the clipboard back, show me the result. They’re like, “This is your result.” And that was it. It was, like, the most (LAUGH) anti-climactic kind of experience of like, I mean, literally I have not eaten out at any restaurants over the past month.
I’ve been intentional about not doing that. I’m not having any visitors, not visiting anyone. When we got together for the holidays, we made sure everyone was tested for COVID. I’ve been vaccinated, all of that. And so it was really a shock to me that I got COVID.
And then with the result, it was just kind of like, “Here’s your result.” And then I turn around and walked home and (LAUGH) figured out, “What am I gonna do going forward?” So have been ordering groceries at home. And one of the things that was encouraging for me though was, I love cooking.
So this definitely as I’ve been doin’ for the past month was cooking even more. And I remember I was cutting up some ingredients, making a chicken soup. And I could actually smell the soup cooking. So I’m like, “Yes.” At least I didn’t lose (LAUGH) my sense of smell–
Chris Hayes: Yeah, no that’s, (LAUGH) dude, there are people. I occasionally see these TikToks of people who have had COVID a while ago and don’t have, like, long COVID in the sense of, you know, enduring fatigue or, like, brain fog. But the one thing that has endured is loss of smell and taste. And that’s seems really, really, really unsettling. And I’m glad that yours is back. And I’m glad that both of you are feeling better. You both really got well. And I’m glad that you’re back and we’re all here together virtually.
Tiffany Champion: Well, and the–
Doni Holloway: Exactly.
Tiffany Champion: –punchline of that is that that also delayed our second attempt at recording this Mailbag. So then when we had it scheduled for today, (LAUGH) we–
Chris Hayes: You’re watching.
Tiffany Champion: Like, that is coming for you. (LAUGH)
Doni Holloway: Yeah, at least we have our antibodies now. Presumably I guess we’re more protected. We’ll see.
Chris Hayes: Well, I will say that I also know people. I mean, obviously, you know, the amount of cases are crazy, and particularly in New York. I definitely know a few people who got, like, entirely asymptomatic cases that were just caught because of, like, routine testing.
You know, I know some people that work in TV that have to be in who got, like, to the point of, like, they wouldn’t have known that they had COVID. And at no point would they have known that they had COVID. I’m just, like, so jealous of that. (LAUGHTER) It’s like is there a way to just get, like, a fully asymptomatic?
Like, the antibodies are there. It never manifests. You never know about it. But, yeah, no, your point Tiffany I think is a really good one. Like, just about the psychology of it and the fact that, like, being sick with literally, I mean, that’s what they call it, the novel coronavirus, is, like, harrowing. All right. Should we hit the mailbags?
Tiffany Champion: Yeah, yeah. So we’re all here. We’re all healthy. We’re all (LAUGH) hoping for 2022 to just–
Chris Hayes: You say that now. Yeah, we’ll see.
Doni Holloway: Knock on wood. (KNOCKING) Chris Hayes: I mean, I trust you guys are. ‘Cause we’ll see how long (LAUGH) I last.
Tiffany Champion: So we’ll get to the Mailbag. We’ll get to your questions. But to the point of we’re hoping for a bigger and better 2020, we have an exciting milestone that we’re hitting on #WITHpod. It’s the beginning of the year. And that is our 200th episode. We will be publishing our 200th episode of #WITHpod in February.
Chris Hayes: That blows my mind, man.
Tiffany Champion: It’s something we’re really proud of. We’ve been around for a long time. This little side project has been around for over three years now. We’ve had really great guests and conversations. And based off of our inbox, based off our Mailbag, many of you have been around for a long time.
Many of you have been around from the beginning and really have connected with the show in a way that is the most gratifying part of my job, and my tenure with the podcast and with the show is just knowing how much you all have connected with it. And so to that end, we are going to ask something from you.
So to celebrate our 200th episode that we’re publishing in February, we want to hear from you. We want to learn more about you. If you are comfortable and able to send us a quick audio recording or a video where you introduce yourself to use, tell us where you live, and then answer one of these questions.
Which of all of our episodes is your favorite and why? Why did it resonate with you? Or where do you listen to #WITHpod? If it is between school drop-off and going to work? If it’s when you’re out walking your dog? If you’re gardening, where is it that you like to listen?
Or why do you listen to #WITHpod? What keeps you coming back for more? Why do you have this in your queue? Why are you subscribed? Why did you leave a five-star rating? Any of those reasons, just put that in a quick recording, preferably 30 seconds or less so that we can try and do something with them, maybe edit them together, put them into an episode. Or maybe it’ll just be for us. But we really want to hear from you. So if you could do that, record a video, record just an audio, snip it, and then email it to us at WITHpod@gmail.com and we’ll see what we can do with that.
Chris Hayes: I love it. I was joking before that I love soliciting compliments. So if you want to throw in like, “What was the funniest joke I made?” (LAUGH) Or something like that, you can also throw that in there.
Tiffany Champion: The most–
Doni Holloway: All compliments–
Tiffany Champion: –like–
Doni Holloway: –welcome.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah, whatever Galaxy brand idea that Chris has that really you were like, “Wow, that’s great.” So now lets get into what we did last year. If you can believe, we started the year with an episode about bourbon. We really wanted to have a totally different conversation.
Chris, if you remember, like, the end of the year we thought, “We’ve talked enough about the election. We’ve talked enough about COVID. We’re gonna do something different. We’re gonna do this episode about bourbon.” And it was really well received. People loved it. And then that episode was published on January 5th. (LAUGH) And then–
Chris Hayes: Oh, wow.
Tiffany Champion: –the next day, January 6th sort of defined our news cycle. The next episode that we had was with Ta-Nehisi Coates talking about January 6th and the bigger picture. But I think this year we managed to get away from the stories that are driving the cable side of things, the news coverage.
Like, going back and looking at what we talked about, we had episodes about art with Anna Deavere Smith, Ani DiFranco, filmmaking with Alex Gibney. We talked a lot about tech, NFTs, bitcoin, Wikipedia, YouTube with Natalie Wynn. We talked about health care with Dr. Hotez on vaccines, Dr. Izzy Lowell on trans health. We did a lot of international episodes. We did everything from, like, Al Roker to UFOs. We sort of paved our own way I think in a year where it’s easy to have news fatigue on the biggest stories. And we really created our own lane.
Chris Hayes: Yeah, I want to say that I really like those. You named together, and in my head they’re together, which is Ani DiFranco, Anna Deavere Smith, and Alex Gibney which were all kind of conversations about the creative process, all of which I really enjoyed. You know, there is that show forever Inside the Actors Studio with James Lipton.
Tiffany Champion: Yes.
Chris Hayes: You know, I like, like, writers interviewing writers, like, partly because our work is pretty generative. Like, we have a blank page every day that we have to fill. That’s what we do every day. And I also write books. And I’m working on some other writing projects.
And so I’m always really fascinated in the creative process, how people make stuff and how they find their way to the stuff they make. And I found those really illuminating and exciting and kind of inspiring, too, which I like. Like, there’s a bunch of conversations we had this year.
The Dr. Izzy Lowell one was also really inspiring even though it’s in a very dark context of this awful kind of like political war on these kids who she is seeing in her practice. But her steadfastness was really inspiring. I guess it was the last one of the year.
But the Casey Johnston weightlifting conversation I really loved. That was also fun because people came out of the woodwork who I didn’t know. Like, I people I know who are, like, actually, like, big. Like, I call them progressive meatheads. (LAUGH) I had, like, all these people texting me or emailing me being like, “Yeah, like, I got really into weightlifting this year too.”
Or, “This is really to me. And I found it transformative.” So yeah, I totally agree. And I think one of the things that’s really nice about this space is, you know, we can have conversations about a whole variety of things. And I think, like, we are all people with various interests, curiosities, broad things that we’re interested in. The way that news cycles function and the way cable news functions is that you tend to sort of really focus and stay on those beats. And so it’s really refreshing for me. I really enjoy, like, the sort of breadth of it.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah, we’ll get into some of the ways that we sort of construct the conversations we want to have. But there is a lot that we did this last year too that we were able to do since Doni joined, some really cool things that we’ve been able to accomplish.
Doni Holloway: Totally, yeah. Speaking of the creative process, we always strive to be creative here at #WITHpod and to do new things. One of the newest things that we did which was super exciting at the top of this year was we had our recent All In#WITHpod collab.
So of course, All In, the cable show airing at 8:00 p.m. on MSNBC weekdays. We did something (LAUGH) really cool there where we had a correspondent for the Atlantic, Bart Gellman, as well as Sherrilyn Ifill, the head of the NAACP legal defense fund.
So we had a conversation, which aired on TV, where our listeners and viewers got to see part of the conversation and hear part of the conversation on TV, but could only get the full conversation on the #WITHpod feed. So that was a lot of fun. We had a different look for the TV show.
Chris Hayes: Yeah, I really liked that. I thought that came out great. I mean, it was a fun experiment. But I loved it. Like, I loved doing it. I thought it looked fantastic on air.
Doni Holloway: It was a very distinct look. And I’m glad that we’re looking at doing more of those episodes. It was a lot of fun. Another thing that we’ve done is videos on social media. So we’d love to be able to give our listeners and viewers on Twitter and other social media platforms the opportunity to see videos of our guests, so kinda get to see a different view.
So as you’re listening to our conversations, you might kind of be wondering the visual. And now for many of our conversations, you get to see those on social media. So that’s been fun. We now feature in our MSNBC daily newsletter. You might be wondering how can you subscribe to that? Well, it’s pretty (LAUGH) easy. All you have to do, just go to MSNBC.com/newsletters. You can click on the MSNBC Daily logo on there. Type in your email address. And then you can make sure you stay abreast weekly with our–
Chris Hayes: Love it.
Doni Holloway: –latest episodes and the content with have coming out.
Chris Hayes: That’s great.
Doni Holloway: And one other thing that we’re doing that’s new is our listener question segment. So love to hear from you all. We love your feedback, love your questions. And you can always stay tuned on Twitter for those opportunities where you can submit your questions. We’ll occasionally do a call to action. You can see those on Chris’s Twitter, and submit your questions, and get your answers from our expert guests.
Chris Hayes: So speaking of questions, we’ve got some Mailbag questions, right?
Doni Holloway: Yes. And we get everything in our Mailbag. I gotta say, our listeners are so dedicated. It’s been super fun. I know this is somethin’ that Tiffany shared with me when I first started is just all the emails that come into the inbox. And certainly I’ve seen that.
One of the things that we got recently, someone said, “We want more Kate Shaw on #WITHpod.” (LAUGH) That one was super interesting to me. So we listened to that. And we have a crossover episode that’s out now. So you can hear that conversation and talkin’ all about the Supreme Court cases to watch in 2022, no shortage of things there.
Chris Hayes: Yeah. And we should say that if you listened to that episode which is out now, that episode, which we noted in the episode, happened before the Supreme Court vaccine mandate case which only further kind of makes the point. But that crossover, which there’s another crossover episode that Kate Shaw, who is my wife for those that don’t know, the light of my life and the love of my life. (LAUGH) And we’ve been together since we were 19-year-old freshmen at Brown. And we have three kids together.
And among many, many things that Kate does, she has this great podcast on the court and the culture of the court called Strict Scrutiny, two other women who are law professors, Melissa Murray, and Leah Litman. And you should check that out if you’re interested in the law in any way.
Doni Holloway: Totally.
Tiffany Champion: And also binge all of our Kate Shaw episodes on #WITHpod. Because they are both amazingly informative and worth revisiting even if you’ve listened to them. But also (LAUGH) Chris’s precious fawning over Kate is just heart eye emojis. (LAUGHTER)
Chris Hayes: The audio version–
Doni Holloway: It’s so adorable.
Chris Hayes: –of heart eye emoji. (LAUGH)
Doni Holloway: I love it. And speaking of cross collaborative things too, well, one thing, some synergy that we had. We also had another guest who was on Strict Scrutiny this past year, Alexandra Brodsky. She was also on Strict Scrutiny. So it’s always cool when we have that overlap.
Chris Hayes: Yeah. And she wrote a great book about sexual justice and sort of thinking about conceptualizing sexual assault, sexual harassment, how institutions can grapple with them in sort of more formalized and equitable way than what has happened before. That’s a great conversation, both with us and with Strict Scrutiny.
Doni Holloway: It’s an important one. And echoing a question, Chris, that we get often, and this is one that we’ve heard throughout the years. And it’s for this year, “Which interview you did in 2021 has stuck with you the most? And why did it stick with you the most? And relatedly, what was the most surprising or intriguing thing that you learned from a guest?”
Chris Hayes: Well, I think that Izzy Lowell conversation in some ways stuck with me the most. And what I think stuck with me about was: It was a really good reminder that sometimes we have these big fights about stuff that are, like, issues. And they’re fights, and they’re culture war polemics.
And this is an obvious point. But you could lose sight of the fact that there’s just people at the center of that. There’s, like, actual people whose actual lives and skin, their bodies, their hormones, their medication, their psychological well-being are all, like, what is at stake.
And I know that intellectually. But listening to Dr. Izzy Lowell who runs a clinic in the South, which is basically the only clinic in the South that does health care from trans youth. You know, just even talking through what we’re talking about when we’re talking about trans youth, what trans youth treatment looks like, what her patients’ lives are like, what brings them to her clinic.
It’s so easy sometimes to lose sight of the basic human component of these kind of culture war battles, even when you’re, you know, waging them on the side of, “I support health care for trans youth.” And that’s the part of this culture war battle that I’m on, which I would say very strongly for myself is true.
And I was just very inspired by her as a person, like, her very humble but determined kind of like quiet, righteous goodness and decency really, really stuck with me. And it also highlighted how monstrous, like, her very non-polemical presentation of the work that she does in some ways made me more radicalized and angry about the attacks on her work than the sort of description of it in the political terms. And so to me it was really a really useful and important kind of regrounding of the conversation. And so that’s really, really, really stuck with me. We’ll be back after this quick break.
Doni Holloway: Another question that we got: We have a lot of authors come on #WITHpod. So we get a lot of people who have written, whether they’re journalists or they’ve written amazing books, books that end up making it on President Obama’s (LAUGHTER) list of the year.
All kinds of different guests, we’ll get into that a little bit. But this question comes from Daniel. And he says, “When and how do you consume all the books you read for this pod and for pleasure? Are you an audio book listener? Or do you prefer a hard copy?” He says he’s a new dad, eight-month-year-old, he’s finishin’ his Ph.D. so he never seems to have the time or energy to read outside of work. What’s your secret?
Chris Hayes: Well, I’m not finishing a Ph.D. (LAUGHTER) So that’s key. I mean, to be honest, part of my secret is the podcast because the podcast requires me to read a lot. And I partly like the discipline of that. I’m pretty fast and I retain things pretty well. And that’s always been a really important attribute for the work that I do.
So, I mean, I also do some skimming. And I think that’s fine. Like, honestly, I think with non-fiction books, you know, I’ve written two non-fiction books. If you read a chapter of each of them, like, I’m happy. (LAUGHTER) Or if you read a few chapters of each of them.
Like, I mean, I would love for you to read every sentence of my book. But, like, I think with non-fiction books, like, in many of them, you can move around and take away a lot without reading them cover to cover. And I think that’s fine mostly, for most non-fiction books.
And, you know, the books we’re reading, you can’t really do that with a novel. But most of the books we’re doing here are non-fiction. The one novel we did I think was Salman Rushdie’s, which I did read the whole thing. So that’s part of it too.
And then, you know, having the discipline of having to do it. If I’m gonna talk to someone about their book, I better have read, you know, at least some of it, if not most of it, or all of it. You know, that really helps me. And so I would say, like, get a podcast where you have to interview authors. (LAUGHTER)
But that’s not really operational-izable feedback. I will say that I do listen to audio books. Kate has become a real audio book convert. It is very useful to have the possibility of book consumption while dog walking, while errand running, while walking back from dropping my youngest. You know, pre-school is a pretty long walk. So I’ve got a 20-minute walk back from that, a 15-minute walk back from that. So I do that as well.
Tiffany Champion: Something else that you said once on a Mailbag many moons ago is that you will have ereaders on your phone. And just when you have that impulse to check Twitter, or you have that impulse to check Instagram, instead open up that ereader. And that’s something I’ve instituted in my own life. And I’ve found that to be better for my brain. And also I’m getting more reading done. Just that little in-between time.
Chris Hayes: It’s so great too for subway. Like, as a subway thing, too. Because, like, I’ll forget my book. Or I won’t bring the book. But I always have my phone, and it will mark when I’ve left off. And particularly if I know I’m interviewing someone that week.
Like, you know, when omicron isn’t happening or in more normal back and forth, it’s, you know, 35 minutes on the train each way. Like, that’s an hour of reading that I could just mindlessly be scrolling Twitter, which let’s be clear, I do a lot of that as well. (LAUGHTER) But don’t get me wrong. But yeah, that’s also been a useful hack.
Tiffany Champion: We got a tweet from Larry. One of our favorite types of feedback is something that he said which is, “Every once in a while the topic of an episode of #WITHpod is unappealing to me. But I’ll start it anyways. And every single time I become engaged, interested, and entertained.”
That’s the best feedback. Honestly one of the best things that we can hear is that we were able to present a conversation that you wouldn’t otherwise have maybe been interested in or thought you would want to learn about and at the end are informed. That’s great.
And this kind of relates to a question that we got from Kurt, but I’m curious how you would want to talk about it. They’ve sort of expressed skepticism about how we say, well, we talk about whatever we want. We’re able to have the conversations that we want to have. So Kurt wants to know, “How constrained are we by the editorial policies and priories of our employer when it comes to choosing the types of conversations that we want to have?”
Chris Hayes: Oh, we’re not constrained at all. I mean, really, really zero, zero, zero. There are constraints on cable news in the program that are not from our employer. They’re in the constraints of ratings and attention. And those are real. I mean, you know, there is an expectation that we have people watch our show.
And there are things that are sort of attracting people’s attention in the news cycle and things that are not. And, you know, that we try to do kind of a mix of, to be honest (LAUGH) to keep people’s attention. And when we try to do things that are not really, like, driving people’s attention, we will find a way to do it in a way we think will.
But here, I mean, part of what makes this platform really special is two things: 1) Those pressures don’t really exist. And 2) the nature of podcast consumption gets back to the point that I think Larry made. You know, that’s how I used to consume, like, physical magazines like the New Yorker.
Like, I would get a New Yorker, and I would just basically, like, look through. And maybe I would look through the table of contents. And I would start with something I was interested in. But then I’d end up backing my way around to, like, a profile of a botanist. (LAUGH)
I would be like, “I don’t know. (LAUGH) Do I want to read a profile of a botanist?” And then I’d be like, “Whoa, this is a fascinating botanist.” And I would be happy that I read the article. Because I trusted that the incredibly talented people that make that magazine would find something interesting and compelling and I would learn from.
And I think people consume podcasts that way much more than they consume cable news that way. Cable news, there’s a little bit of, like, an itchier trigger finger. You’ve got the remote there. You’re also consuming it at a specific time which is, like, 8:00 p.m. where with a magazine or a podcast, like, maybe you’re lounging on a Sunday. Or maybe you’re going for a walk with a dog and it’s kind of in the background.
So there’s different ways people consume different media, all of which to say, “I think people often really overestimate the degree of bosses telling us what to cover, and vastly underestimate how hard it is to get people to watch your television show (LAUGH) or listen to your podcast, and how much that drives things more than any instruction. And in the case of the podcast, I mean, there truly is zero direction. We brainstorm things that we’re interested in. And then we talk to people about those topics.
Tiffany Champion: Yes.
Doni Holloway: And it truly is the things that keeps Chris up late at night. I will (LAUGH) affirm that, true to the tagline of Chris through Slack, through various channels, texts. It really is the things that he’s thinking about at all times.
Chris Hayes: Yeah, we just recorded a podcast yesterday. And I don’t know, it’ll probably not be out yet, about Afghanistan with Anand Gopal. We’ve been tryin’ to book him on the show. It’s been a little hard because he’s been out of country. But, you know, that’s a topic that keeps me up at night. It’s, like, slightly hyperbolic, but is really, really upsetting and anxiety producing about what’s gonna happen there. And, you know, we’ve done a bit on the show. But this is an opportunity to have a longer conversation.
Tiffany Champion: And sometimes there are, like you said, articles that you were like, “Oh, this is interesting.” Case in point, Dr. Herman Pontzer, about how we convert calories to energy (LAUGH) which was the one that I was left talking about for, like, many days after.
Like, “Oh, he said this other thing. Can you believe that you would be surprised?” Here’s a question from John. And I know we’re running out of time. So just quickly, “How do you conceptualize expertise and pursue the truth? (LAUGH) Did you ever consider pursuing an advanced degree? And what advantages do you think journalism offers when searching for truth?”
Chris Hayes: I did consider an advanced degree in philosophy. I considered going to philosophy grad school. I’m very glad that I did not do that, even though I’m grateful for my philosophy training and grounding. The question of expertise is really, really fraught one and actually comes up a lot in this show.
Because it’s, like, a single-guest interview, we’re sort of investing the person with a certain amount of authority. And, you know, one person’s perspective on the state of Afghanistan or vaccines or whatever isn’t the sum total of the truth about that topic, (LAUGH) almost definitionally, which I think listeners should always keep in mind.
You know, this has been a real issue in, like, the most people podcast in America which is the Joe Rogan podcast. You know, sometimes you will encounter Joe Rogan conversations that are far from the areas of, like, vaccine denialism, that are just, like, super great fascinating, really good long-form podcast interviews.
Like Brian Greene on, like, the origins of time who is, like, a physicist who writes about the birth of the universe. And, like, he’s a very good podcaster. He’s a very good interviewer. The problem a little bit with that show is just, like, who gets imbued with authority.
And that is a deep, deep question that I think we wrestle with a little bit. Sometimes we will have someone who some people think they’re wrong. (LAUGH) Their main thrust is wrong. And not because like, “Oh, I don’t like that person’s politics.” But like, “No, this person isn’t the authority you think they are.”
You know, there’s a fallibility there. I think that the posture of the conversations are not gonna be real, like, hostile cross-examine-y just because I think that’s just not that enjoyable to listen to, you know, in general. It’s harder to get more out of that.
But it is something I think we keep in mind about who are we conferring authority on. At the same time that I would say that no one should ever think that so-and-so’s pronouncements on a topic are the final word and the sum total of authority about that topic.
They just definitionally cannot be. And I do think there’s something a little slippery there that John is rightly pointing towards actually. And I think to the final point about, like, truth. I think that journalism at its best is just relentlessly curious and humble, and is trying to understand the world in good faith with the knowledge that total understanding is impossible. (LAUGH) And, you know, that is the project that you want to try to go through your professional work with that kind of animating you.
Doni Holloway: And another question, to the point, as you said, we had a lot of experts, people with differing views. But one thing that I think that we can agree on is that there are some reasons to be hopeful. And that speaks to the question that we got from Aaron who’s a long-term listener of ours.
And he says, “There’s a lot of reasons for feeling doom and gloom right now ranging from BBB, Build Back Better stalling, Senate Democrats seemingly being unable to pull the country back from a lurch into authoritarianism, and the climate crisis, just to name a few.” He asks, “What gives you hope?”
Chris Hayes: Well, a few things. One is that I’m a pretty optimistic person by nature and disposition. I think thinking about things in historical and philosophical terms really makes me be hopeful. I was just texting with someone back and forth about Abraham Lincoln in, like, ’63, ’64 before the war starts to turn. And at that point it’s like–
Tiffany Champion: Your group chats are different than mine. (LAUGHTER)
Chris Hayes: Well, this was not a group. (LAUGHTER) No, my group chats with my friends are, like, literally me being like, “Here’s the sandwich I made for lunch today.” Like, I’m a TikTok (LAUGHTER) sandwich person. This has been a running bit I’ve done where I’m like, “Oh, what do we got here, boys? “Oh, a grilled cheese with Calabrian peppers. Oh.” (LAUGHTER)
Tiffany Champion: It’s a joke until it’s real, Chris. Watch out.
Chris Hayes: No, no. (LAUGH) Oh, believe me I 100% want to be a sandwich TikToker. (LAUGHTER) I’m not even joking. So that’s gonna be the next size–
Doni Holloway: We can get some tips from Hank Green! (LAUGHTER)
Chris Hayes: But no, so I was texting back and forth about the current state of the situation. And, you know, just the bleakest hours of Lincoln’s Civil War, and McClellan who was screwing things up and doing a horrible job. And it looked like the North was gonna lose.
And the public opinion in the North was sort of turning against the war in a really dangerous way. Like, “Maybe we should just let ’em go.” And, like, you know, darkest before the dawn kind of moment. But there’s a lot of darkest before the dawn moments throughout history.
And I think, like, reminding yourself of that is really, really important, and to me gives me a lot of hope. And then taking the long view about the fact that history can be tough and brutal at times. And, like, it’s not like a stoic detachment.
But I think understanding things in a broader sweep of humans struggling for making meaning and producing a world that is, you know, as just and equitable and humane as possible is, like, an ongoing, never-ending project that there’s no end point to.
And being part of that project as best you can is what gives life meaning, to me at least. And that is the thing that I fall back on, you know, in the absence of a religious faith, which would be nice honestly (LAUGH) to have in some ways. But I just don’t have it. So this is my secular version of that which I think is what we have to work with.
Tiffany Champion: All right. Final question, Chris, hard hitter. What’s your favorite part about havin’ a dog?
Chris Hayes: Oh, we love it. (LAUGH) Gosh, I love so many things about having a dog. Let me tell you, well, I love belly rubs. Like, I love it when she (LAUGHTER) comes over and just, like, presents her belly to me to rub. But the thing, I love the affection.
I love watching their minds work more than anything. I think it’s just really an incredible thing to watch this alien brain operating, sensing you, coming to understand certain things. And the process of bonding and forming a relationship and something that feels like genuine, like, reciprocal love across a boundary of species and language. (LAUGH) And I am finding it a really magical experience. And I’m completely, completely in love with my dog.
Tiffany Champion: This is what gives me hope is people adopting dogs. If you can adopt a dog, adopt a dog, man. It’s great.
Chris Hayes: So great.
Tiffany Champion: If you can foster a dog, foster a dog. That’s what gives me hope.
Doni Holloway: So sweet. We should do a episode.
Chris Hayes: We should. I would love to do it. Let’s do that. Let’s do an episode on dogs. All right, I have to go. I’m gonna let you guys do the outro.
Tiffany Champion: Cool.
Chris Hayes: All right?
Doni Holloway: Sounds like a plan–
Chris Hayes: All right.
Tiffany Champion: We got it.
Doni Holloway: All right.
Chris Hayes: All right.
Doni Holloway: Talk to you later, Chris.
Chris Hayes: Stay healthy everyone. (LAUGH)
Doni Holloway: You too. (LAUGH)
Tiffany Champion: Bye Chris.
Doni Holloway: I know we promised this earlier in the conversation, the #WITHpod making it on former President Obama’s favorite books of 2021 list. And we talked about hope in this conversation. Of course, President Obama talked a lot about hope in his campaign.
Some of the books that made it on former President Obama’s favorite books of 2021 list include How the Word is Passed. That was by Clint Smith. We had him on the podcast. The Invisible Child by Andrea Elliott. And A Life in China with Te-Ping Chen. So we have a lot of authors here. And it was cool to see those authors make it on former President Obama’s list as well.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah, I know we were one of his most listened to podcasts. He was just too afraid to put it. (LAUGH) You know, it’s okay, President Obama.
Doni Holloway: It’s coming. It’s coming.
Tiffany Champion: You can admit it. It’s fine. (LAUGH)
Doni Holloway: We know you’re out there listening.
Tiffany Champion: No, yeah, I know you’re listening right now. Michelle, you tell him what’s up. (LAUGH)
Doni Holloway: And join the chorus of listeners. We did something really cool. Chris did a call to action on Twitter asking for listener raps from Spotify. So Spotify does this really cool thing where it’ll tell you at the end of the year how many episodes you listened to and for how long.
I think this really speaks to the dedication of our #WITHpod listeners. Because when we did the initial call to action, when we announced the winner, it was someone named Asher who had listened to 45 episodes for a total of 2,495 minutes. And then after that was published, we actually heard back from someone who was really on it. Our new winner, Shana listened for 3,522 minutes for a total of 67 episodes. I think that’s more episodes than we did in the whole year.
Tiffany Champion: Yeah. It literally is. I mean, maybe there was a binge in there. Welcome to the family, Shana. (LAUGH) If you’re new, that is admirable. But yes, that’s amazing. Thank you. (LAUGH) Thank you for listening. We hope you learn something. Don’t forget 200th episode, send in your submission, 30-second video or an audio clip. Hi, my name is Tiffany. I live in New York. I love listening to Why Is This Happening because it teaches me things I wouldn’t otherwise learn. Boom.
Doni Holloway: This has certainly been a lot of fun. And it’s always great to do our Mailbag. Hope you’ve enjoyed it. Why Is This Happening is presented by MSNBC and NBC News produced by the All In team, features music by Edie Cooper. You can see more of our work including links to things we mentioned here by going to nbcnews.com/whyisthishappening.
Tiffany Champion: Nailed it. (LAUGHTER)
Tweet us with the hashtag #WITHpod, email WITHpod@gmail.com. “Why Is This Happening?” is presented by MSNBC and NBC News, produced by the “All In” team and features music by Eddie Cooper. You can see more of our work, including links to things we mentioned here, by going to nbcnews.com/whyisthishappening.