The two-term governor of Kentucky is a Democrat — and he runs a state Trump won by 30 points last year. He’s got plenty to say about what’s holding Democrats back and where they go from here. His most direct advice? “Talk normal.” And he doesn’t shy away from standing up for things he believes in even when they’re unpopular in his deep red state. As one of the most popular governors in the country, it’s a pretty safe bet he’ll join the field of Democrats running for president in 2028. Before that, Jen and Democratic strategist Lis Smith talk about how Democrats can win on the immigration debate, becoming a party that stands for more than being anti-Trump, and the gerontocracy fights back via Cincinnati Bengal Joe Flacco.
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Editors’ Note: In this episode, Jen Psaki and Lis Smith discuss the NYC Mayoral race. We want to note that previously in her career, Lis Smith worked for and advised former Governor Andrew Cuomo who is currently running for mayor.
Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: Hi, everyone. It’s Jen Psaki. I’m back with Episode 3, Season 2 of “The Blueprint,” and you’re going to want to stick around for my guest today. It’s Governor Andy Beshear. He is governor of the state of Kentucky, a state Donald Trump won by 30 points in 2024, but he is still one of the most popular governors in the country. So there’s a lot to talk to him about, including what’s holding Democrats back and where they should go from here.
But before that, my good friend and political savant of sorts, Lis Smith. Lis is a veteran of just about every kind of Democratic campaign you can think of. If there’s an up and coming Democratic candidate anywhere, Lis is probably involved somehow.
All right, Lis, you and I have both been pretty critical about the gerontocracy, otherwise known as old people who will not stop running for Congress and refuse to leave, of which there are many. But I will say both of us are Bengals fans. Both of us watched them. And last Thursday there was what they’re calling the Unc off? What are they calling it?
Lis Smith: The Unc Bowl. It was the Unc Bowl.
Jen Psaki: The Unc Bowl last Thursday, and I feel like it was a moment where the universe was sending us a little bit of a signal.
Lis Smith: Apologies to the gerontocracy, that was one of three games in NFL history where you had two quarterbacks playing over the age of 40, and it was one of the most electrifying games I’ve seen in years. I was up till 3:00 AM, ordering Joe Flacco merch. Some of which may end up in your mailbox —
Jen Psaki: I want my T-shirt.
Lis Smith: — at 3:00 AM. And you know, I think we can tell everyone, when my son was born, you sent him over a big package of newborn baby Bengals merch, so that’s how big fans we are. But back to the central point here, yes, most 26, 27-year-old quarterbacks in the league are going to be better than your average, 40, 41-year-old. But not every 40, 41-year-old quarterback is created equal, and the same applies to members of Congress, elected leaders in their seventies, and that is some nuance that I think that we all can bring to the gerontocracy discussion.
Jen Psaki: For sure. So this is a good news for the 70, 80-somethings in Congress who drink water, get their steps. And I will say, I interview a lot of people on set, and there are some people who are in their 70s and even 80s who are so with it and great.
All right. So a little bit of a harder topic that I know you and I both have been talking about probably through the course of our political careers, which is immigration. It is both a vexing, challenging policy issue and a really, really hard political issue. I mean, to the point where sometimes consultants will say, if it’s about healthcare, this election, the Democrats will win. And if it’s about immigration, the Republicans will win. It’s not always that universal, but that’s how hard it is.
I’m going to start with some good news because we all need a little good news. Trump, a year ago, he was 10 points up on immigration, and the majority of the country supported mass deportations. Now, the majority of the country does not support mass deportations. He is underwater on that issue. He is underwater on a couple of other specific issues on immigration. Now, the place, and this is a nuanced issue as they all are, where he’s still up is on securing the border. And CNBC poll recently had him up by 5 points on that. So what does that mean? What advice would you give to Democrats about how to manage that politically?
Lis Smith: I actually wanted to read a line from an op-ed that Long Island Congressman Tom Suozzi, who full disclosure, I consulted for during his 2024 special election for House, wrote in the New York Times over the weekend, because he said something that frankly is probably going to make a lot of your listeners’ heads explode.
Jen Psaki: Your listeners too. People’s heads may explode, but go ahead.
Lis Smith: And my head exploded a little, but it’s worth hearing. He said, quote, “Democrats must concede that Donald Trump was right about the importance of securing the border, and he was right about the need to deport violent criminals who are in this country illegally.” Now, that same sentiment came up in an interview over the weekend between Ruben Gallego and the New York Times’ David Leonhardt, which I recommend to everyone to listen.
Jen Psaki: Do you want to play part of it? I think we might have part of it.
(BEGIN AUDIO)
Ruben Gallego: Most Americans are very unhappy with what’s happening with immigration right now —
David Leonhardt: Yeah.
Ruben Gallego: — because they liked that the border is secure, which I get yelled at all the time. I say, you know, it’s good thing that the border is secure.
David Leonhardt: Meaning Trump has secured it.
Ruben Gallego: Yes, exactly. That’s a good thing. The value to this country that we have the lowest amount of illegal immigrants crossing the border right now. What I want them to do now is let’s do immigration reform, stop racially profiling, stop deploying National Guard to patrol the streets that supposedly are dangerous and really invest in a smart way of dealing with a broken system.
(END AUDIO)
Lis Smith: Similar sentiment. And look, I don’t think that this is an issue where Democrats always have to be on the defense, and sort of playing Republican light or playing into their frame. We absolutely should be going on the offense on the issue of these lawless ICE raids and mass deportations, and making the moral case, yes, that people have been here for 30 years. They shouldn’t be deported. People have families, kids, all that. They shouldn’t be separated. But we need to go right at the core of Donald Trump and his administration’s rationale for these, that is good for public safety.
And to that end, I also wanted to play sound from Denver Mayor Mike Johnston, when he was talking to the largest conference of police chiefs in the country, just this past weekend.
(BEGIN AUDIO)
Mike Johnston: And Denver that, yes, you’ll find that if we stop you for a speeding ticket, we don’t ask your immigration status because it doesn’t matter as to whether you were doing 65 in a 45 or not, because what we find is that makes our city safer. But, here, we don’t care whether you came from Cleveland or Caracas. You know you can trust the people in uniform every day in this city, and that makes Denver safe.
(END AUDIO)
Jen Psaki: It’s really good and here’s why. He’s speaking about it in a way that people live and experience in their daily lives. This is why sometimes I think mayors and even governors, who are good at this, speak about things in a much more accessible in a real way than members of Congress. I will say that guy, I kept getting confused about his name because it’s like Little Mike Johnson as I will always call him. Little is attached to his name. And Denver Mayor Mike Johnston who is a different person. But that is a very good way of talking about it.
The thing that I think we’ve sometimes lost, but I’m curious on your thoughts, is the ability or the willingness to be nuanced in how we talk about issues. And this applies to immigration. It also applies, I think, to trans rights and trans issues. I mean, I could cry over some kids and families I talked to and I’ve talked to on my show about what they’ve gone through and the mental health challenges, and what they need in order to be the person they are and they are meant to be.
At the same time, I don’t understand the government paying taxpayer money going to pay for prisoners in jail who want to have gender-affirming care. That’s my view. But there’s no space for nuance, and I think immigration is a space where nuance is strength. Nuance is addressing in ways communities are really living it.
Lis Smith: Right. And to your point about mayors, they’re the ones who actually have to work with police chiefs.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Lis Smith: And police chiefs say we are less safe if our immigrant communities will not work with us. They will not report crimes. They will not testify in court, and that makes our entire community less safe.
And one piece of advice for Mike Johnston, as someone who worked for Mayor Pete Buttigieg, maybe let’s just shorten it, go by Mayor Mike.
Jen Psaki: Oh, yeah. That’s good. I like it. Mayor Mike, we like it.
Lis Smith: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Not to be confused with Little MJ.
Lis Smith: Exactly.
Jen Psaki: I had another topic I wanted to talk to you about. I don’t know what the right answer is, that’s why it’s fun to talk about. Wait, let me start with the good news again. There was a huge protest across the country this weekend. This is the third set of No Kings protests. Seven million people, that is a huge chunk of people. Anyone suggesting out there that there is not energy, the Democrats aren’t fighting back and pushing back, has been living in the sand when they see these protests, and including in lot of red places like cities in Idaho, Huntsville, Alabama, Huntsville, Alabama, Trump won by 9 points in 2024, and there was a big No Kings protest there. Oxford, Mississippi, he won by 23 points there in 2024, big protest there. So point is there’s energy.
We can also tell there’s a lot of focus on anti-Trump and the power of it by how we’re seeing people who have elections in just two weeks run and what they’re spending their money on, because money is such an indicator of what people think works. And I just want to play a couple of these ads because I think it’s quite telling. We can talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN AUDIO)
Unidentified Man: Ciatterelli wants to be the Trump of Trenton, Jack Ciattarelli 100% MAGA, 100% wrong for New Jersey.
Unidentified Man: With Prop 50, the Election Rigging Response Act, we can stop Trump cult.
Unidentified Woman: MAGA Republican, Winsome Earle-Sears, Sears speaks for Trump.
Winsome Earle-Sears: I’m supporting what the president is doing.
(END AUDIO)
Jen Psaki: Okay. I mean, those are around some of the biggest elections coming up, the Virginia governor’s race, the New Jersey governor’s race, Prop 50 in California. I did read an article this morning that was about how Republicans may try to use Trump in the Prop 50 race, which is I think an interesting strategy in California, but who knows?
But I think my question I’ve been thinking about with all of this is how much should it be Trump, and how much should it be other things? Anti-Trump is energizing for the party, which is good. But does it get you over the finish line of winning elections? What do you think?
Lis Smith: So we’ve got to be able to do two things at once, and it’s something that we have not been good at doing. My hot take on this is that it’s bad as Donald Trump has been for the Republican Party. Some ways, he’s been worse for the Democratic Party, because from the second he came down that golden elevator seems like all —
Jen Psaki: Was it a golden elevator? I think we should keep calling it that.
Lis Smith: Golden escalator. Golden escalator.
Jen Psaki: Escalator. Yeah.
Lis Smith: Yeah. We can’t stop talking about him. We can’t stop talking about the show. And yes, we should be calling him out when he’s doing things like these mass deportations or trying to raise people’s healthcare premiums, whatever it is. But we do not need to waste a 48-hour news cycle when he talks about the size of Arnold Palmer’s manhood.
Jen Psaki: As fun as it is.
Lis Smith: As fun as it is.
Jen Psaki: We may on cable television and prime time.
Lis Smith: Yes, we may. And we may hear because it’s fun. But Democrats need to get back in the business of telling people what they’re for. Voters after 2024 said, we don’t know what you’re for, except for being against Donald Trump. And you know what? Even in a Democratic primary, in a very blue area like New York City, we saw Zohran Mamdani run and break through almost purely on the issue of affordability, not just the issue of Trump, when a lot of people thought this race was going to be defined by who is the candidate who can stand up to Donald Trump most.
Jen Psaki: The analogy I’ve been using with myself, I guess, and whoever wants to listen, is like if you open the cupboard to Trump and Republicans and you’re like, ugh, I don’t want anything there. There has to be something else in the other cupboard, right? It’s like if you think it’s bare or you’re not interested in those ingredients either, then I don’t know what happens.
Lis Smith: Right.
Jen Psaki: People are just like, I guess I won’t eat. That analogy maybe needs some work, but that’s what I’ve been thinking about. Let me ask you something else. I mean, one of our producers who helps us with this podcast, Andrew and I were talking about this yesterday, that obviously there are different electorates in each election, as you know well.
Lis Smith: Right.
Jen Psaki: You’ve done how many elections? 7 million.
Lis Smith: Like 27 something. Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Like a thousand million number.
Lis Smith: Right.
Jen Psaki: And the electorate that helped the Democrats do well, three years ago, in the midterm elections. Am I getting this math right? I think so. This is post-ops. They do better than expected. I shouldn’t say “well,” prevent the red wave in 2022. It was not a red wave. It was supposed to be a red wave. That was an election that was largely about abortion rights. So it was very focused. A huge percentage of the money was spent on abortion rights ads. It worked.
It seemed to be that the 2024 election was run with like a little bit of a similar approach. Like, let’s use this issue that generates enthusiasm among the base, which that’s still being for something. But I think it’s still missing a big part of the larger conversation in terms of where the majority of money and effort is spent.
Lis Smith: Totally. And if you look at the Democrats who overperformed in the House, who won Trump districts, their ads were like them with sheriffs, them distancingthemselves from Biden on the border, and most importantly, talking about affordability. So affordability should be front and center at all of Democrats campaigns this upcoming midterm election, to my mind.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. It’s a good thing to remember in order for Democrats to win back the House and maybe keep the damage minimal on the Senate, win back some things. People have to get elected, who are running in districts that are different from what they may look like on the coast, where you and I both live, and that means that issues in the discussions are different.
Lis Smith, thanks for joining me again. This was fun. We’ll do it again next week.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Lis Smith: All right. Great seeing you, Jen.
Jen Psaki: We’ll take a quick break, but when I’m back, my conversation with Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
Jen Psaki: Welcome back. I’m excited to introduce my next guest, Kentucky Democratic Governor, Andy Beshear. He has some pretty direct advice for Democrats, talk normal. He also isn’t afraid to stand up for what he believes in, even when it’s not popular in his state.
Governor Beshear, it’s great to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Andy Beshear: Happy to do it.
Jen Psaki: So I just want to start, you’ve said that Democrats need to be more normal or talk more normally. I’m paraphrasing for you.
Andy Beshear: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I very much identify with this. But what do you mean by that?
Andy Beshear: Well, what I mean is that for some of the right reasons, advocacy speak has snuck into our language, and it snuck in in a way to where it sounds like we’re talking down to people, that we’re talking at people and not to them; that we use words that don’t have any emotion behind them, and some people just wonder what we’re talking about at all.
A very personal example in Kentucky is the opioid epidemic. We in Kentucky, all of us have lost a dozen people, maybe more that we knew, that we grew up with. It hit us so hard. But I haven’t lost one single person I know to substance use disorder. I lost them all to addiction. You know, you hear that word and it’s mean. It’s nasty. It’s a killer. It takes people from you. Or when people triumph over it, they deserve to triumph over something that is so difficult, something so challenging, something that came for them, yet they still triumph.
Think about the big ugly bill and what it’s going to do in terms of food assistance. You know, if we try to push back against that, if we want to undo it, we can’t say more people are going to be food insecure. Not only does that almost not make sense, but it has no feeling. We’ve got to be saying that people are going to go hungry. Seniors aren’t going to be able to sleep because they’re hungry at night. Kids aren’t going to be able to concentrate because they’re hungry in schools, or the newest one, and Rahm Emanuel has mentioned this too, is justice-involved population, which of course are —
Jen Psaki: I don’t even know what that means.
Andy Beshear: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: What does that mean?
Andy Beshear: Those are our inmates. Listen, I believe in second chances. The Bible tells us it’s not just what we’re supposed to do, it’s what we’re called to do. We’re teaching a skill trade in each of our prisons. Our recidivism is at a low point in the last 10 years. But you know what our inmates all call themselves? Inmates.
And so if we’re going to communicate with the American people, we can’t be professors. We can’t sound like we’re smarter than everybody else. We just got to talk to them, same way we talk to our friends, same respect we’d show to them too.
Jen Psaki: I have to say somebody who lives in the D.C. area, but has spent most of my life out on political campaigns and out in the country, sometimes the way people talk in D.C. is so confusing, right? It is this subcommittee hearing, and the squad did this, and this person did that, and people tune out.
Andy Beshear: They do. And the process, people don’t care about. They care about the results. It’s the idea that the signing in the Rose Garden doesn’t mean anything anymore because it hasn’t created that job yet. And people will laugh at the ribbon cutting, but it’s the most important part, the most important ceremony when you’re opening, say, a new factory, because the announcement is the hope, the groundbreaking is the progress. But the ribbon cutting, that’s when they’ve hired hundreds of people, that’s when lives are forever changed.
And so the vote on the rule, on the amendment, on the resolution, again, just doesn’t impact people’s daily life. And that’s in part also because it’s taken too long for policies to go from the signing to directly impacting people’s lives. I actually believe we, as Democrats, ought to take a little responsibility for that. You know, if you overregulate, or if you overcomplicate, then it takes longer for the results that we really want people to feel. We really want them to change their lives. It can take too long to get to them.
Jen Psaki: How do you think, because part of his untangling people from this need to speak in a language that I guess, partly, it’s of not wanting to offend people. That’s some of it, I think, or feeling like there are words or phrases that are acceptable. How do you think you untangle Democrats running out there, people running for office, people in the party?
Andy Beshear: Well, I think all these words were meant to reduce stigma, but you don’t reduce stigma by changing words. You reduce it by changing hearts. You know, I’ve pushed as hard, if not harder than any governor in our history to increase treatment options for those suffering from addiction, to look for second chance employment, because that drug overdoses have gone down three straight years, including 30% last year.
Let me just clarify, I’m only a small part of that. It’s the thousands of people that work in recovery that themselves have triumphed over addiction, that are helping others through. But if we have a track record of working in these areas of getting results, of showing people that we care, then we don’t have to use language. That sounds like we don’t care or as devoid of that emotion. So I think we can let our actions and results speak for us, while still actually talking like that normal human being.
Again, you look at all these peer support specialists, folks that have gone through addiction, come out the other side and been willing to walk back into their trauma to help that next person. They all refer to it as addiction too.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. I think part of it is people don’t want to offend anyone. They’re afraid of getting attacked on Twitter or on social media platforms and all those things. They go through people’s minds and they want to say all the right words, and nobody is perfect about all the right words they say too. No human is.
Andy Beshear: Maybe the answer then is don’t read the comments on Twitter.
Jen Psaki: That’s perfect.
Andy Beshear: Certainly don’t read the comments on mine.
Jen Psaki: No, certainly mine either. I have fewer than yours, but mine are pretty vicious too.
You’ve thought a lot, I think, because I’ve heard you talk about it, about this question of what Democrats stand for. Because it is a question, you see this in polls, you see this in focus groups. People don’t entirely know always, and I don’t mean just hardcore Democrats. I mean just average people living their life.
Tell me if you still think this is right, because I’ve heard you say this, you’ve made this point that Democrats need to spend 80% of their time on issues that impact a hundred percent of Americans. I just wanted to get that exactly the right way you’ve said it.
Andy Beshear: Yes.
Jen Psaki: What does that mean? Is it cost of living? Is it healthcare? What does that sound like? An implementation, I guess.
Andy Beshear: I think it’s the idea that when people wake up in the morning, they’re not thinking about politics. They’re thinking about their job and whether they can, not just afford the grocery bill at the end of the week, but to take their family on vacation at least every now and then. They’re thinking about their next doctor’s appointment and whether the next prescription will push them over the edge of not being able to afford it. They’re thinking about the roads and bridges they drive each day, the school they drop their kids off at, and whether they feel safe in their communities. I think all that together, if you think about it, they’re wondering whether the American dream is still attainable.
You think about how important that is for the glue of our society. The idea that if you work hard and play by the rules, you can get ahead. But, right now, you can’t buy a house in the same year, the same decade that your parents were able to. You’re worried about that next bill, that next car repair that’s needed, just making it to where you can’t make it work. You’re wondering how many different jobs you have to work?
So I believe that Democrats have to be the party that makes that American dream real again. We increase housing supply. We lower the cost of prescription drugs. We make sure you can see a doctor in your own community and don’t have to drive several hours. We invest in broadband everywhere, as well as safe roads and bridges. We recognize that while some of the crime statistics may be going down, people don’t feel safe, so we do that much more. I think it’s all of that. It’s about making people’s life just a little bit easier, maybe just a little bit better to where they believe when they get up in the morning. If they do everything right, that they’re going to be able to provide for that family they love.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: Let’s take a quick break, and when we’re back, more of my conversation with Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
Jen Psaki: One of the things that is perplexing, I think to me at least, I mean, I’m biased. Obviously, I worked in Democratic politics for a long time, in the sense that I think the policies are so much better for people, for working people, for people across the country, that people like you and other leaders are standing for, but it’s not how the public feels writ large.
Andy Beshear: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I just want to ask you because you said this interesting thing that I think probably made some people’s heads explode, but I think it was really interesting. That’s always a sign of something interesting, someone said. That you think that some people may have voted for New York mayor candidate, Zohran Mamdani, for some reason, I know people’s heads are exploding over, for the same reason maybe they voted for Donald Trump —
Andy Beshear: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — because they were able to convince people that their number one issue was cost of living. You can see, as I say it, I’m like, I see people’s heads exploding.
Andy Beshear: No.
Jen Psaki: But why do you think they were successful at that? Because their policies and what they each stand for, whether you’re a hundred percent for them or not, are very different.
Andy Beshear: I think this goes back to the 80% of your time on things that matter to a hundred percent of people. I believe that both of those individuals won because they talked more about lessening the costs, helping people get by, having a good job than their opponent did, and people believed that they would do that much more.
Yes, Democrats have better policies on all of this, but we also have five times the number of policies. And so, if somebody looks at a Democratic candidate, we’re talking about 50 things because we’re trying to hit each part of a coalition with a different message. And the other side has three messages and they’re all about things that impact everyone. Listen, no matter what part of the “coalition” you’re in, you’re worried about paying your bills. You want to be able to see a doctor in your own community. It’s that idea that people aren’t as political again as we think. And so, I believe both of those candidates, people saw as talking more about their everyday needs and they believe they’d work harder on them and were less distracted by other things.
Right now, the American people want that so badly. They’ll vote for somebody that’s cruel and that’s Donald Trump, or they’ll vote for somebody that calls themselves a socialist and one didn’t put out any policies at all. The others put out some policies that probably aren’t attainable, but people still believe that they’re going to work that much harder. And if they believe the American dream is too hard to reach, they’re willing to vote for people that’ll shake it up too.
So if we want again to make sure that Democrats get back to winning, it’s got to be about those things that impact people’s daily lives. It’s got to be about that American dream. And people have to not only see a policy statement that says it, but they got to believe we’re going to work on it every single day. While we will stand up for our convictions and while they might disagree with some of our convictions, they know 80% of our time, we’re going to be working for them, for the betterment of it, and for those things that lift up every family.
And let me just say, I think the last piece is that we’re thinking that people are only thinking about them and whether they can pay their bills. They’re thinking about their neighbor too, and they don’t care if their neighbor is a Democrat or a Republican. They like them. They want them to do well, and they want their kids to do well. And they see them struggling too.
Jen Psaki: That’s so true. I think you see that in the reaction to a lot of the Trump policies on immigration, where people start to see human beings who have been living their community for 10 years, 15, 20 years, law-abiding people, right? And it’s like, wait a second, I want to do more at the border, but I don’t want my neighbor whose daughter goes to my school to be taken. I think it’s such a human reaction, how that’s changed a bit.
Andy Beshear: Yeah. It’s the difference between border security and a policy of immigration enforcement that lacks humanity.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Andy Beshear: I mean, the idea that an armored vehicle pulls up in a neighborhood in the middle of the night, people in full tactical gear, jump out in masks, throw somebody down to the ground, shackle their legs, handcuff them or zip-tie them, throw them in the back of that vehicle, and they’re in a different state in several hours. That’s not who we are as Americans. It’s also something that I don’t think anybody is comfortable in.
The idea when you looked at Alligator Alcatraz, that we would put people in cages that we would not put a wild animal that we found in one of our towns and cities. People don’t like that, regardless of party, that extremism, that meanness, that lack of humanity, because someone may be in the country illegally and that is against the law, but they are still a human being. And so, we have to enforce our laws, but let’s do it in a way that recognizes that they’re a child of God too.
Jen Psaki: Let me ask you about Zohran Mamdani, I mean, he’s unquestionably incredibly talented, I think. As you’ve had, he’s got a very focused message on cost of living that has helped propel him. There is this sort of fantasy by a lot of Republicans out there, that if he’s elected mayor of New York, which he is very much on the path to do, that he’s going to be tied. They’re going to tie his policies and what he stands for to people like you, who are rising stars in the party and others, right?
I don’t think he would be elected in Kentucky. You probably don’t think that either. How do you think people should handle that? How would you handle it? How should other governors, people running for competitive elections handle it?
Andy Beshear: When I ran for election in 2019, they morphed my picture into Barack Obama. So this is nothing new. It’s sad. I mean, it tries to play on people’s fears and the worst of them. But I’ll tell you what, in my last election, they ran about $10 million of anti-LGBTQ ads against me, and I ran $10 million of pro-economy. We’re creating good jobs at the same time. And I won by the most I’ve ever won by.
So we’ve got to push back. Sure. But we’ve got to be more than a party that’s just against someone. We’ve got to be for something. And making sure that we are pushing out that message of creating better jobs, of expanding healthcare, of creating those good roads and bridges, making sure you’re safe in your community, and supporting our local public schools is just so critical. I think that’s not only how we win. It’s how we govern well, and hopefully it’s how we heal the country, because if we get results in that, people of all parties will notice and hopefully will all come back together a little bit.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. I think that’s a message that’s very powerful for a lot of people out there. I mean, not only they attempt to wallop you, I should say, from the right.
Andy Beshear: They tried.
Jen Psaki: They tried. But you kind of went on and you didn’t back off of your support for LGBTQ plus rights. It’s not like you fought that —
Andy Beshear: Never.
Jen Psaki: — and you stopped. I mean, you vetoed a big anti-trans bill in 2022. I believe I got that correct. And Republicans kept attacking you, kept attacking you after that. There’s this sort of interesting debate, I know you’re well aware of, within the party about what percentage of your time we should spend talking about what, and whether you should talk about issues like the Democrats, most of them, are a party that stands up for the rights of trans people.
You are the perfect person to talk to about this. How do you think about that? How do you balance it, if that’s not the right word? What do you say to communities who say, okay, spend 80% of your time talking about cost of living, but then what about me? Nobody is standing up for my family and my trans son or my trans daughter.
Andy Beshear: Well, that’s the other 20% of our time because we cannot abandon our convictions. We have to be a party that stands up against discrimination, no matter who it’s aimed at. And for me, when they pass that nasty anti-trans bill, there were a lot of kids out there that were hurting and were hurting bad. Their legislature showed them hate. I had to be a governor that showed them love. Their legislature was showing them judgment. I wanted to be a governor that showed them acceptance.
I vetoed that bill because my faith teaches me that all children are children of God, and I wanted those kids to know that they were supported. I did that because it was very important to me and who I am and my value system. I think people can disagree with your convictions, but they respect that you have them. But the next day, you got to be opening that factory. The next day, you got to be cutting the ribbon on the new road that saves somebody 20 minutes each way.
I think people are okay with you having a different opinion on some of these issues than they do, but they can’t believe that that consumes all of your time, because then what’s in it for them if they’re struggling. So I think it’s really important that we still spend that 80% of our time on things that impact a hundred percent of Americans. But in that other time, we stand up for every conviction we have. When we do it that way, people think about it a little differently, and especially when we share our why, not just what we did, but why we did it.
Jen Psaki: I think that trans kid, it’s such a human issue. I could cry over some of these families I’ve talked to, and their kids, and everything they’re going through. I think that helps make it very real for people. It’s a powerful way to talk about it.
Let me ask you, one of the things I’ve learned as a semi-retired political campaign rat is that you need both a positive message about what you stand for. As you’ve been talking about, people care about that. They don’t want it just to be tearing apart the other guy or the other gal. But you also need to define kind of why you’re better than them. What is so bad about them that makes you the better choice?
I’m telling you something you have successfully done many times more than I have done. You have been complimentary of Trump when you felt it was warranted. I think it was the flooding, the moments we’re recovering from the floods.
Andy Beshear: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You’ve also been critical of him at times. What do you think is the most potent attack against him? There are so many that are happening at one time. It’s almost, I think, hard for people to follow too.
Andy Beshear: Well, I think it’s important for credibility. When a president does something you agree with or is good for your state or area, you need to admit that because that’s the only way you have the credibility to disagree. Right now, I have very serious disagreements. What this president is doing to this country is incredibly concerning from tanking our economy with tariffs to about to devastate rural economies with a big ugly bill and cuts to Medicaid that are going to shutter rural hospitals. It can’t just be about the person.
You know, when I speak out, I’m not anti-Trump, I’m just against really terrible policies that he and he alone are pushing. You look at him holding that tariff poster, which I think he’s going to regret. This is his policy. I’ll give him credit that he owns it, but what it’s doing to soybean farmers across America, what it’s doing to slow our economy in terms of reshoring which he claimed is why he wanted to do it. But it now makes everything you build costs 30% more. It’s making a terrible impact on each and every state, and mine will feel it more than most.
And so when you just are against someone, it can create energy. But energy needs direction and that’s why you’ve got to be for something. So I disagree with Donald Trump’s tariff policy because it’s going to add $2,700 in cost to each and every one of my Kentucky families.
What would I do differently? I’d work hard to create better paying jobs. We’ve announced a record amount of private sector investment, a record number of jobs, and the best three-year average of wages in our history. People in Kentucky are making more, and so inflation didn’t hit some of them as hard. Then I’d work to bring down the price of prescription drugs, which President Biden was doing. For the first time, I’m really negotiating with the power of the federal government. So I think it’s important that when we talk about Donald Trump’s policies we disagree with, we also talk about alternatives that the Democratic Party will embrace.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. I think that’s an incredibly important part, because when people say I don’t want that meal and that cupboard, they have to open the other cupboard and there has to be something there that they want to eat or buy, or whatever it may be.
Andy Beshear: In the past, we’ve always been pushed to have a 40-point plan.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Andy Beshear: Remember President Trump didn’t put out a single plan in his last election. The Vice President was pushed to do it, and then she was grilled on about bullet point 3 of sub point 2. So the American people right now mainly want to know what your priorities are, generally, how you’ll go about them and how hard you’ll work. And they’ve got to believe that.
Jen Psaki: I think the Vice President’s agenda was called the opportunity agenda or something along those lines. And I think that’s in the category for me, of your point about language and terms, because there was a lot of good stuff in there, but people heard a term that sounded poll-tested and D.C.-produced that didn’t mean anything to them.
Let me just ask you about winning over Trump voters. I mean, Trump won Kentucky by 30 points last year. Am I getting that right?
Andy Beshear: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You’re the sitting governor. So clearly, you had to win people who voted for Trump at different times. There’s sometimes an overfocus. There’s sometimes an underfocus on it. How do you think people should go about doing that, who want to?
Andy Beshear: When you look at my state and how folks voted, take the county that JD Vance, falsely claims he’s from. Trump won it by 50 points. I won it by 22 the year before. This is about people looking for a better life. Yes, a lot of these folks may identify as Republican. Yes, the National Republican Party is invested in Kentucky, often demonizing national Democratic candidates for decades, and we haven’t seen the same investment from the National Democratic party. They were starting to.
But, still, people will cross over and vote for somebody if they believe, number one, they’re real, that they are authentic. Two, that they care about them. And three, that they are going to make their life better. Now, certainly in Kentucky, I went from winning by 0.4% to a full 5%, in part, because of showing up day after day and getting results.
I remember there’s this county called Henderson. It’s a great county. It had been blue for a long time, but it was trending red. I won it by, I think, 500 votes in 2019 and I thought that would be the last time that that happened. You know, all of the representatives and senators are now Republican. But in that election year in 2023, we put what was the world’s cleanest greenest recycled paper mill on the planet in Henderson, 350 jobs, paying $40 an hour. I won Henderson by 1,500 votes, a thousand more, even though things were more polarized. Why? Because people saw a better life.
That’s what these jobs are supposed to be about. We rightfully talk a lot about message and approach, but actually governing well, getting results, proving to people, people that you’ll make their life better, that that’s still not only the best way to govern, but the best way to set up an election in a run.
Jen Psaki: It sounds simple when you say it that way, but yes, that is a, that is a perfect place to end Governor Beshear thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it.
Andy Beshear: Thanks for having me.
Jen Psaki: Thanks so much for listening to “The Blueprint”. You can subscribe to MSNBC premium on apple podcast to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you’ll also get early access and exclusive bonus content.
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