The Harris-Walz team is firing on all cylinders heading into a final campaign blitz with two months to go. This week, MSNBC host and Vice President Harris’ former senior advisor Symone Sanders Townsend joins former Senator Claire McCaskill for an insiders’ take on the vice president’s tireless campaign strategy, in contrast with the meandering, sometimes incoherent rally speeches Donald Trump has been delivering this cycle. Then, California Senator Laphonza Butler stops in to talk about the evolving labor movement and a working-class economy being central to Harris’ pitch. Lastly, Symone and Claire preview next Tuesday’s high-stakes debate, from two women who have been in the room, prepping for debates past.
And check back with us on Monday, September 9th for the first two episodes of our new mini-series “The Threat of Project 2025”. We’ll dive into abortion rights and education with Ali Velshi and Joy Reid.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
Claire McCaskill: Hello, and welcome to “How to Win 2024.” It’s Thursday morning, September 5th, by the way, opening of the NFL season. I have to do this Symone. We always did this, when Jen and I were co-hosting. We have to talk a little football and Chiefs play the Ravens tonight.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Okay.
Claire McCaskill: Ay-yay-yay, it will be a game. I’m Claire McCaskill and I’m here with my guest co-pilot today. I’m thrilled to have MSNBC’s own Symone Sanders-Townsend. She is a former senior advisor and chief spokesperson for Vice President Harris. And now co-hosts “The Weekend” with Alicia Menendez and Michael Steele. And I am honored to be on the air with her from time to time and she is terrific. Hey, Symone. Thank you for taking some time to be with us this morning.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: It is good to see you and talk to you and I’m happy to be here. And you know, every time I see Claire, she’s like call me Claire. And I’m like, Senator. She’s like call me Claire. So, I’m going to do my best to call her Claire today.
Claire McCaskill: Good. You know, the thing is it makes me feel younger. I used to make the joke that people would say, well, why would you want to go to Washington at this point in your career? And why would you want to be a senator? And I said, hey, at my age, it’s the only place in the country I can feel like a hot, young chick.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Okay. I like that. That’s still accurate, okay.
Claire McCaskill: So turning from humor to really tragedy, we need to do a shout out to Georgia. And if the school year has begun, so have the slaughter of children, innocent children. As of Wednesday afternoon, we lost two teachers and two students, at least nine injured and a 14-year-old is in custody, having used, of course, an AR-15 to mow down innocent people at high school in Georgia. Let’s listen to what the vice president said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Kamala Harris: It’s just outrageous that every day in our country, in the United States of America that parents have to send their children to school worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. It’s senseless. We’ve got to stop it. And we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. You know, it doesn’t have to be this way. It doesn’t have to be this way.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
Claire McCaskill: You know, NBC just did a youth poll this week and it showed that Harris has a 50 percent support among young people. And I got to think this gun issue is one that the young people really care deeply about. What do you think, Symone? could we do more on guns, if we just managed to take the House, hold the Senate and put Kamala Harris on as President of the United States?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I mean, I think it is a necessity. Look, I think guns is an issue that speaks to the youngest voters, the Gen Zers but also the millennials, the voters my age. But also older voters, you know, Gen X and above, because it is something that touches us all in many different ways.
When I saw the reports of the shooting, all I could think about was my 9-year-old stepson and how just, I remember before the end of the school year, last year, they were on lockdown because someone in the area had a gun. And it’s unfathomable. I’m used to fire drills, right?
That’s what I had to do when I was in school. I’m sure you had to do fire drills, Claire. But these children now are doing active shooter drills. And you have to explain to children like why the school was locked down. You have to ask them to talk about, to parse through what they are feeling. This is not something that we should be putting our children through. And while I think it’s unrealistic to say we’re going to prevent every single mass shooting.
Claire McCaskill: Right.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: But it is very realistic to say, we can put some regulations and some guard rails in place to ensure young people that have no business having access to a gun have one. And Kamala Harris as president with a Democratic Senate and a Democratic House could do that, and I think they will do that. And voters need to know that is something absolutely on the ballot, but my heart breaks for those students. I think about the teachers. I’m sure that those teachers, everything they could to save those students. And this is the beginning of the school year.
Claire McCaskill: Yes.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: It is devastating.
Claire McCaskill: You know, and technology today, we use our fingerprints to open our computers, right? We can use our faces to open our computers. They could easily put those on guns.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes.
Claire McCaskill: And that way you would have a 14-year- old that got ahold of a gun at his home wouldn’t be able to fire that weapon. That wouldn’t stop somebody from owning a weapon and target practicing and hunting. And by the way, the weapons of war, we do not need weapons of war and multiple magazines and bump stocks and all that crap, you know. I’ve never met a hunter and I was raised by a hunter and I was born in rural Missouri, where everyone had shotguns. I’ve never known they need weapons of war to —
Symone Sanders-Townsend: You are not killing deer with weapons of war.
Claire McCaskill: No, you’re not.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I am from Nebraska, okay.
Claire McCaskill: Yes.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: We go turkey hunting in Nebraska.
Claire McCaskill: Right.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: You are not killing turkeys with weapons of war. Like we just have to get very serious and realistic about what we’re talking about here.
Claire McCaskill: Yes. All right, now into the war room, okay. This is kind of fun part of the pod where I get to pretend like I’m a political strategist, and I know that you really are a political strategist. With Labor Day, all but a faint memory at this point, we are 61 days out and the campaigns are kicking into high gear. Well, one of them is. The fat orange guy is sitting on a golf cart mostly and ordering a cheeseburger after he does his 18th hole. But Harris and Walz are out there killing it, man.
They are killing themselves. They are working really hard. I want to take some time to look up the strategy and Trump’s meandering incoherent speeches and his light schedule. And then, Senator Laphonza Butler of California will join me to look at the labor vote, making wages and economy. A central part of the Harris campaign and how important it is to keep electing women to office.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: In every state and then we are going to get into our debate prep stance. You know, Claire and I both have some thoughts about this. We are going to preview the first presidential debate of the cycle coming up next Tuesday.
Claire McCaskill: Okay, so let’s start with my favorite part, if I were in the room. If you were in the room with Vice President Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, you were in the room. So, this is really cool to do this because you were actually in the room. So, it’s anybody’s race. I think they are appropriate to keep telling everyone. And I think we need to underscore this, it is close.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes.
Claire McCaskill: It is close. This is a nail biter, particularly in the swing states, in the battleground states that are going to decide the electoral college vote.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Absolutely.
Claire McCaskill: So, let’s talk about that. Is she the change candidate? Carville says that change candidates win. And how has she managed, if she is the change candidate, how has she managed that? It’s kind of cool, right?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Right. A sitting vice president as a change candidate.
Claire McCaskill: So, what does she need to do? At this point, what should they be focusing on to win every single day in this cycle?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Well, look, I think one of the things they are doing is not taking anything for granted when it comes to time. So as we had this conversation, the Vice President is in debate prep and she’s prepping in Pittsburgh. Now, you could do debate prep at the Naval Observatory in Washington D.C. or at Howard University which is, I think, where she’s done some sessions previously this cycle. And when I was into break prep with her in 2020, that is where we did debate prep at Howard.
But taking the candidate out of Washington D.C., putting them into a battleground state allows earned media coverage while they’re there, not doing any events, just debate prepping. You are obviously going to go out, get something to eat, okay. There is going to be OTR. That will be covered on the local news. That is just a good, quick way to get some earned media that is not a heavy lift at all while still getting the business done. So, things like that.
Claire McCaskill: Tell people what OTR is.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Off the record stop.
Claire McCaskill: There you go, there you go. Something the people or the press corps is not necessarily knowing about ahead of time.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes, but you tell them right before that you are going to go somewhere. And then you kind of bring them into the space, so that they can catch the video and the audio of the candidate doing this off the record stop. Meaning it was not something that was scheduled previously. And oftentimes it’s, you know, visiting a local, small business or stopping to get something to eat. And the candidate will, if you’ve done good advanced work, unlike Vance people, your folks have gone in and made sure that the people in the business want the candidate there.
So, maybe we will see OTR, an off the record stop, today. But I do think that the campaign has the right tone and tenor. That they keep saying, the vice president keeps saying, we are the underdogs and they are the underdogs to be very clear. I know it feels all joyous and great. If you look at the numbers, if you really drill down on some of these battleground states, it is very close. So, they have the right tone, I believe, and tone is important.
And they just have to keep talking policy, which I know, it sounds crazy, because Donald Trump doesn’t actually talk policy. But when you talk to voters out there, I have been traveling across the country with Melissa Murray, been talking to black women, every time, especially younger black women, they say, oh, we don’t know much about her or I think I like her but I want to know what the policies are. So, the policy is important to some of the voters.
Claire McCaskill: Yes, she did great work yesterday on small businesses and separating yourself from Biden by saying the tax that she would collect on capital gains is lower than what Biden had proposed. And here’s the thing that you talk about squeezing the margins. I mean, this is what I lived. The margins in those red counties are what decide whether you win or not. And I think that’s really important for people who are the base of our party to understand.
Presidential campaigns are won in the middle. They’re not won on the edges. Now, we need excitement on the edges to get people to show up, to get people to turn out. But those swing voters, those last few percentage points in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin, those aren’t people who have strong opinions on the left or the right. Those are people who have voted for both Barack Obama and Donald Trump or Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
So, be patient with the campaigns messaging. If you don’t think they’re talking enough about some of the more progressive priorities, it’s not because they don’t have those values. It’s because they’ve got to show the middle of the country that they are ready to govern. That they understand the practicalities of governing and that they’re going to be balanced and work across the aisle, really important. So, what about abortion?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Well, I think it’s going to be a driving factor. I was struck by the idea that, I literally was very taken aback that J.D. Vance said in an interview that women are going to go to vote on things that really, you know, matter to them, their bread and butter issues and like abortion isn’t one of them. And to me, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of really what the landscape is across the country. And now that you’ve have some type of abortion amendments, reproductive freedom amendments on the ballot in 10 different states, that will be a boon, I think, to turnout.
So, one could argue that talking about the issues, understanding your state and the electorate in that state is what’s going to make a difference. And so I like how the campaign talks about freedom because it is. It’s about freedom, but at the end of the day, it’s about when you were in the doctor’s office, do you want your doctor to have to pick up the phone and phone it in to the Capitol?
Claire McCaskill: Yes. And by the way, you know, Nicolle and I talked about this on “Deadline: White House” on Tuesday. Men, yes 60 percent of American men support reproductive freedom for women, 60 percent, Symone.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: That’s high.
Claire McCaskill: That’s really high and I think we sometimes get so focused on women and how we are going to move to the polls. And I’m excited about that and there’s going to be a gender gap. I’m confident of that, but men, men are going to show up too. And in Missouri if your daughter is raped, if you’re a father and your daughter is raped, the government says she’s got to carry that child a term and force her to give birth to it. So, I think men are going to show up. So, what’s Trump up to? What do you think? I mean —
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Didn’t you say he was at his golf club, right? He was golfing and posting on his social media site.
Claire McCaskill: Yes, let’s listen to some of him in Michigan last week, so people get the flavor of what he sounds now. Okay, run that.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Donald Trump: She destroyed the city of San Francisco. And I own that big building there. I shouldn’t talk about this, but that’s okay. I don’t give a damn because this is what I’m doing. I should say it’s the finest city in the world for selling (ph). Get the hell out of there, right? But I can’t do that. I don’t care, you know. I lost billions of dollars, you know. Somebody said, what do you think he lost? I said, probably 2, $3 billion. That’s okay, I don’t care.
They said, do you think you do it again? And that’s the least of it. Nobody, they always say that, I don’t know if you know, Lincoln was horribly treated. Jefferson was pretty horribly. Andrew Jackson, they say, was the worst of all, that he was treated worse than any other president. And I said, do that study again, because I think there’s nobody close to Trump. I even got shot. And who the hell knows where that came from, right?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
Claire McCaskill: He seems to be way more ramble prone. It’s not making much sense. You know, he’s trying to say that there’s some kind of method to this. I don’t think so. What do you think?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I think he is definitely rambling. It is very interesting how he talks about San Francisco because he always says some version of, oh, San Francisco 10 years ago was great, San Francisco 12 years ago. You know, who was the DA in San Francisco 10, 12 years ago? Kamala Harris, okay. So, I just think he needs to consult a calendar. Donald Trump, I just think he’s really from a couple things.
One, if you remember, he didn’t actually like being president, you know. He didn’t like being president, he didn’t like the job. I don’t think he enjoys campaigning. I think he enjoys crowds and people like shouting his name, but I don’t think he enjoys like doing the work.
And so it’s a reminder that he is literally doing this because of all of the legal trouble that he is in, you know. That’s literally, just a reminder, that’s why Donald Trump is here. He has no strategy, if you will. I just don’t see Claire how this wins an election. I know that there are people out there that still want to vote for Donald Trump, right? But like infrastructure is important and then your candidate bolstering and using their time to actively earn people’s votes is how you compete in a race.
And Donald Trump is not doing those OTR stops I talked about, he’s not doing those. He’s like rambling on a stage about things that don’t make sense. And then, he’s attacking his opponent on her looks and just wondering if she’s black or not. Like these are not things, I think, that resonate with those voters that you need to help close the margins with.
Claire McCaskill: Yes, almost 60 percent of the ads they’re running are attacking her. And I will say on the Harris side, they have the infrastructure in place and you and I know how important that is. The ground game is huge. They have committed more resources to moving voters to the polls, identifying our voters than ever before in a presidential campaign. They have raised more money. They’re even so flush, they are giving down ballot races serious cash early enough that they can use it efficiently.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes.
Claire McCaskill: They are staying disciplined on message. They are working hard every day. Meanwhile, he’s trying to show that you can have a rally a week where you ramble and say weird shit about Hannibal Lecter and electric boats and sharks. And spend a bunch of time in the middle of the night, sending stuff on True Social that’s just bizarre and get elected president.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes.
Claire McCaskill: I just don’t think it’s going to happen. I mean I am not saying that this is a done deal. He’s got a lot of loyal people that would stand in front of a train for him. But it feels like that they’re in a good place right now in terms of they’re being prepared. I mean just the Vance donut shop is a showing of how professional one campaign is than the other. I mean have you ever seen a sadder encounter of a vice presidential nominee than that donut shop?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I was like did anybody ever vet (ph) the donut shop? I mean look, for all the thoughts that I have about J.D. Vance, he’s a sitting United States senator, for crying out loud. You got the senator in this donut shop looking like a fool. What is going on?
Claire McCaskill: He looked like a fool.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: It’s crazy. To your point though, can I just note that it is, yeah. I think Donald Trump absolutely has a ceiling. You playing the sound is very important and more people need to play Donald Trump’s sound because he’s benefiting from being out of sight out of mind because his posts are not on the site formerly known as Twitter. They are on his little social media site, True Social. And so people are not seeing the crazy entering their ether in a way that they did the last election and he has gotten worse.
Claire McCaskill: Okay, before we wrap, Symone, I want to ask you about this. You and Melissa Murray are hosting an MSNBC special on September 29, “Black Women in America: The Road to 2024.” Tell me about your special and why it’s important for people to tune in on September 29 on MSNBC.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: We are so excited for this. Look, black women, right, the last election they voted at 90 percent for now President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. They literally helped propel them to the White House, but that is a drop off from 2016, and that’s even a drop off from 2012 and 2008. Black women are not a monolith. I think we often think, oh, black voters specifically, like they are going to support Democrats.
But if you really take a look and you just peel back the layer, you will see that there is a lot of nuance there and black women are going to decide this election all across this country, not just in the cities, but in the suburbs and even in some rural areas. So, we went all across the country talking to black women, and we really just wanted to get a feel for what they were saying, how they think about this election. You think you know black women’s voting patterns, you think you know black women’s ideology, but you actually have no idea. So, we are just excited to bring this to you on September 29 at 9:00 p.m. on MSNBC.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Claire McCaskill: That’s great. Okay, we’re going to pause here. Up next, California Senator Laphonza Butler will join me to talk about the importance of fair pay, a working class economy, more representation by women in office, especially in this coming election. Back in a moment.
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Claire McCaskill: Welcome back. The old James Carville adage, it’s the economy, stupid, still holds true decades later. While reproductive rights and immigration and the war in Gaza are hot button issues, that really matter in this election cycle, how people are feeling about their ability to pay for groceries and afford their home is always going to be front and center in every presidential election. One of the people fighting behind the scenes for these issues as Senator Laphonza Butler of California. She’s recently emerged on the national stage, giving a rousing speech at last month’s Democratic National Convention, AKA the love fest.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Laphonza Butler: Conning young people who simply want a good education is unthinkable, stiffing hardworking laborers like Donald Trump did in Atlantic City is unthinkable, bragging about having ripped away a woman’s freedom to choose what she does with her own body is unthinkable. And Democrats, Americans, we deserve better.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
Claire McCaskill: Before Senator Butler took office, she spent years as a leader in the labor movement and then as president of EMILY’s List, which during her time recruited and supported over 600 women to run for elected office. And she joins me now to talk about the importance of a fair economic shake in this election. Welcome, Senator Butler. I am so tickled to have you. Thank you for being here.
Laphonza Butler: Thanks so much for having me.
Claire McCaskill: All right, let’s start with this economy thing. I think that there are too many Democrats that wanted to hang out with the statistics and just say over and over again, well, inflation is coming down and the stock market is doing great and we have created 14, 15, 16 million jobs. And they just gloss over the fact that for many Americans, some feel like they’re treading water, but many of them feel like they’re drowning. No matter what they do, no matter how hard they work, they just can’t get ahead.
That is a really big deal in this election. I think our vice president understands that. I know you do. I know her talking about small business and the affordability of housing and price gouging is all related to this reality. Why don’t you give us a little bit of your take on what you see as the most important things that the Harris-Walz tickets needs to stress to really make sure people know that she sees them and that she understands where they are right now, trying to pay the bills.
Laphonza Butler: Yes, Claire, thanks so much for that question. It’s interesting that sort of as the intellectual debate sort of persisted, I found myself being so frustrated with those statistician Democrats, where for so long being a leader in the labor movement, my job was to listen to people. And I have found that to be one of the most important things that we can do as not only public servants who were seeking to earn someone’s greatest trust by earning their vote, but just as human beings and the importance of connection and restoring civility in our politics, in our discourse.
And so listening is incredibly key and for so long, it felt like we were sort of rolling past the very voices that were going to be determinative in this election. And so I think what the Harris-Walz ticket is doing in this moment is reflecting back what they have heard from the American people. Now, when you sit and talk to families all over this country, even, you know, places like California, they’re talking about the driving costs of, you know, what they’re spending their money on, housing, how it’s so unaffordable right now.
Prescription drugs, how our seniors and even young people who are having to take life sustaining drugs in many cases, their families are struggling to pay for. The cost of groceries, I you know, was just in the grocery store the other day. I know how much a gallon of milk costs, particularly for a growing 10-year-old and the cost that families are facing right now.
And so I think what the Harris-Walz ticket is trying to do is in this moment talk back to the people who have been talking to them. Let’s figure out beyond the sort of political rhetoric of it all and how the stock market is doing and how, you know, job growth is happening. But they’re saying, I hear you on that gallon of milk and that loaf of bread, and here is my plan to address it. Yes, I need Congress to work with me. But if you give me a Democratic Senate and a Democratic House, we can make it happen.
They’re saying, I hear you on rent and the out of reach possibility it has become for young people to own and buy a home. And we want to change that for the next generation of Americans that are coming up and reaching for these opportunities. And so, I think there is a sincerity, there is an empathy, but most importantly, there is a communication that is back and forth. That is listening to the American people and being a representative government determined to do something, to fix those challenges that people are facing.
Claire McCaskill: You know, before we get to EMILY’s List, which is near and dear to my heart for a whole bunch of reasons, many of which are personal in terms of my political career. I want to talk about unions because you were a union organizer for SEIU in California and rose through the ranks. So, people understand SEIU is the service workers union. A lot of people that take care of people you love are members of SEIU or they should be. A lot of people that provide you services in many different fields are members of SEIU.
Talk about what you see, because one of the big things that has occurred is Democrats, I think, have gotten discouraged about the rank and file voting for Democrats, about the rank and file staying with the Democratic party. What do you attribute that to? And what’s your take right now? What percentage of the rank and file union members in this country do you think will vote for the Democratic ticket in November?
Laphonza Butler: Claire, you know, when I started growing up in the labor movement, the president of SEIU was a fellow by the name of Andy Stern.
Claire McCaskill: Know Andy.
Laphonza Butler: Andy, Andy would always talk to me about and talk to us in SEIU about how he saw the labor movement in three ways. It was male, pale and stale, and that it was our job to do something about it. And so, I feel like I was at the right place at the right time doing the right thing. And though it was hard to be a young black woman to come up as a journey person organizer, traveling the country, helping people to form their unions was probably one of the greatest privileges next to serving my country in the United States Senate.
And you know, SEIU has always sort of led from this place of bold action, of choosing to do things together as a union, no matter what city you were in or state you were in, but that we were one union, one team fighting in the same direction. And I think there have been efforts to continue to do that by all unions and similar to your first question, people have grown very frustrated. When you feel like your union is doing all that they can and you still aren’t getting enough wage increases to cover the cost of interest or the rising prices of groceries, you’re going to feel incredibly frustrated and not listened to.
And there are some things that are within the union’s ability to control and there’s some things that are not. The election of President Trump was an incredible setback for working families across this country where Supreme Court decisions that led to the weakening of union representation and the Janus decision was a blow to unions like SEIU, like AFSCME and our teachers across the country.
The refusal to do anything to raise the minimum wage, the federal minimum wage in this country led unions like SEIU to just go out and do it in the states and go out and do it in the cities. But declaring that $15 an hour wasn’t about trying to make our companies poorer, but frankly, to reward the work and productivity of workers across the country. And so I think where we are as a union movement, as a country is that we are on, I believe, the beginning of a horizon.
The work of the AFL-CIO and unions like the UAW and Shawn Fain and the new leader of SEIU, April Verrett, Randi Weingarten of AFT, Becky Williams at MEA (ph), look, I think that this is a different labor movement. It’s often said this ain’t your grandfather’s union and I think that’s the moment that we are in. Young workers want to be a part of the union at a higher rate than ever before in this country right now.
I think the number was 81 percent last Labor Day for workers under 30, who wanted to be a part of a union. I think we’re, again, at the tip of the horizon. And this is a key place, I believe, for Vice President Harris, Governor Walz to really engage both the labor movement and those who are not yet in the union to truly build this opportunity economy, where everyone has the opportunity to thrive and to be a part of a union if they want.
Claire McCaskill: So EMILY’s List, Early Money Is Like Yeast. For people who are listening that don’t know what that acronym stands for, it was started, what, 40, 50 years ago? I don’t even want to say —
Laphonza Butler: Forty.
Claire McCaskill: Yes, 40 years ago. One of my mentors, Harriet Woods, who ran for the Senate when I was a pup, was one of the first recipients of EMILY’s List money. The founder, Ellen Malcolm, did a wonderful job growing the organization. It’s been in great hands, including yours, through the years. I know they are really active, especially with the falling of Dobbs’s decision because this was for pro-choice Democratic women to recruit them, support them, train them and get them money early.
So, that they could use the money in the most effective and efficient way. Talk about your former successes, the successes of your former organization in the midterms. And why do we still have so many races that go uncontested? I mean what can we do? I try but I think we need to talk to everybody who’s listening this podcast about them examining why they’re not running for office, even in places that they may not win, it still matters.
Laphonza Butler: Yes, look, I think I’m so proud of the work that I was able to do at EMILY’s List before being asked by Governor Newsom to serve, to finish the term of Senator Feinstein. It was an opportunity that taught me so much about the sacrifices that people, but particularly women make to run for office at every level of government. The work that we were able to do in partnership with Planned Parenthood and the what was then NARAL, but now Reproductive Freedom for All, just right after the Dobbs’s decision was, I think, deeply impactful for 2022.
When every sort of pundit out there predicted a red wave, it was the issue of abortion and the work of these organizations and organizations all across the country who helped to turn that around. But it was primarily because we had the best candidates. And it’s been the work of EMILY’s List for now almost 40 years, to make sure that we were recruiting the best candidates, putting them in position to win. And to compete the resources that are required to run for office are enormous and is a great remains, a great barrier for particularly women to run for office.
We are independent and fierce minded and asking people for money is not our first place of comfort for us. And so that’s the incredible role that, I think, EMILY’s List continues to play, helping women to effectively raise money and ask for people to invest in them and in their candidacy. And actually being able to do it at a time when our nation had elected its first and highest ever serving woman with Kamala Harris as vice president with Joe Biden, I think was a cherry on the Sunday and me getting the opportunity to do it.
But it was also the opportunity for us to do the work of advancing her in that moment, right. It was a time when she was under the most heinous attacks online, the mis and disinformation, the sexualization or racist comments.
And so we were able to start a Madam Vice President project and initiative to put out, to help people understand who the vice president was. And, you know, for every woman that’s out there, yes, there are more women running for office now, more than ever, particularly women of color. Latina, African American, AAPI women are putting themselves out there for office and the bottom is low. And so to be at the highest is, yes, an accomplishment but we can all do better.
Claire McCaskill: We can all do better. I used to do the blouse speech. I used to tell women, okay, I know you’ve gone out and bought a blouse. Maybe it was on sale and you got it home, you tried it on, it gapped in front, it never fit right. It’s still hanging in your closet with a tag on it, but it was such a damn bargain. So, I just told women write that check that you paid for that blouse, that sits in your closet until you finally give it away to a candidate you care about.
Get used to writing and I said, please put blouse on the memo line. And to this day, people tell me that they still get checks that say blouse on the memo line. You know, it’s like women always saw money as security. Men saw money as power. And I used to tell women, the ultimate security is power. It is way more important to elect women.
Laphonza Butler: Say it again to the people in the back.
Claire McCaskill: Who are going to protect you and protect the things you care about and protect your children, way more important than that damn blouse. The point is, even if you’re helping Republicans, women giving money is important. And women asking for money is something that we have gotten much better. I used to practice in the mirror, Senator. I used to look in the mirror and say, I need you to give me money, you know.
Because it was so foreign to me when I started, I got really good at it after a while but it was foreign. Okay, so you’re on a letter, I want to hit this before we let you go, to Merrick Garland about protecting election workers. Do you believe the Department of Justice is doing what it needs to do to protect our election workers in this election cycle?
Laphonza Butler: You know, it’s one of those metrics, Claire, that unfortunately we won’t really know until election day. I can listen to the words and read the reports of what the team from DOJ has sent over to my office in response to the letter and the words on the page look good. You know, the calls that we have sound great, but the attacks just spiked in the last few years directed towards these public servants is unacceptable in a democracy like ours.
And I’m going to continue to be one of those voices who will nag incessantly about the investments that we are making, the coordination that is required at the federal level working with our state and local governments to administer these elections. But most importantly, to protect these public servants, who’s only offering is to do the best that they can for their neighbor to cast their ballot. And we got to protect them and we got to, most importantly, punish those who intimidate, who threaten, who harass. There have got to be consequences. And, to me, those are the kinds of things that I want to see from our Department of Justice, from our attorney general, what are the consequences for folks who do these types of activities?
Claire McCaskill: Yes, we have seen some consequences for the J6 defendants, even though the orange guy eating a cheeseburger on the golf cart wants to pardon them all. I will say that consequences, and I love it that Ruby Freeman and her mother have gotten financial justice. I love it that they’re trying to take Giuliani’s Yankee’s World Series rings, that just makes my heart beat a little faster.
I am just so proud of them for fighting as hard as they have, but accountability is really key. And I certainly hope everybody who votes in November and I hope all of you do and get all of your friends to vote and make sure everybody is registered. Thank the people that are working the polls, when you’re there, because most of them are just volunteers. Most of them are just like you and me, and they just want to help out.
I think they make maybe 10 or 15 bucks a day in Missouri for doing it. It’s not like this is something that they are, oh, I’m going to go in there and see if I can’t mess stuff up. They are just trying to help out, and they deserve a kind word from everybody who’s voting because they make the system work.
It’s been such a pleasure to have you. I see why Kamala likes you so much, why she thinks you are just better than sliced bread as my grandmother used to say, and I’m proud of the service you have provided our country in so many different roles. And I look forward to talking to you again in the future. Thank you so much for being with us, Senator.
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Laphonza Butler: Thank you for having me. It’s been great.
Claire McCaskill: Laphonza Butler represents California in the United States Senate. She is a longtime labor advocate and former head of EMILY’s List. Next up my co-host, Symone Sanders-Townsend, is back with me to preview next Tuesday’s first presidential debate. Back with that in a moment.
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Claire McCaskill: Welcome back. My co-host MSNBC’s own Symone Sanders-Townsend is still with me. Okay, now we are going to talk debate. I’m not going to lie, I know you won’t either. This is a big deal. She got to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure. Anybody who says debates don’t matter need to realize that she is the candidate for President of the United States because debates do matter.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Exactly, debates matter. The rules for the debate matter.
Claire McCaskill: Everything matters. So, you were with her in her last debate prep when she prepared to debate Mike Pence. I think I’m speaking her line, you know, there’s always one line in a debate that lives forever. And I think that line, when Pence was trying to talk over her, she established herself as a force and as someone who has strength and power was really important. Tell me what you think is going on in debate prep. How much are they going to lean into bugging Trump versus laying out policy?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Well look, and you talked about that line from the last debate, that was something that we workshopped, right? We practiced that. That is something that like, look, he’s going to interrupt you when you are speaking. What is the thing that you are going to say to rebuff him? Because let’s just be very clear, there are ways in which that if there were two men standing on the stage in this upcoming debate, it is just different, it is different.
And so a way in which a man might respond to being interrupted, a woman, even the most powerful woman in the United States of America, the Vice President of the United States of America, cannot, to just be frank, cannot respond in the exact same way because it will be taken differently. And there will be people who are tuned in, who maybe have never seen her in earnest before. They have only seen clips on the news or whatnot.
So, they are going to make decisions about how they feel about what she’s saying, but also who she is and what kind of president she will be based off of everything. So, debates are just as much about the policy and what one is saying and what one believes as it is about performance. It is about policy and performance. And to your point, last debate, there was some shifty stuff on performance, very shifty. And then obviously, even some of the policy lines were not delivered as crisply as they needed to be from President Biden in that last debate.
So, it is going to be all very important. You have to ensure. I am sure the vice president is doing mocks at this point. And I mean Donald Trump, the last debate, that he did with a woman, it was Secretary Clinton, and he encroached upon her personal space, many times. Literally was like stalking her on the stage. I have to imagine that they have practiced, what are you going to do if Donald Trump comes into your space? You are not going to bop him in the nose, okay, even though you might want to.
What are you going to do when he comes into your space? There are many ways in which you could respond, but you are running to be the commander in chief, the President of the United States of America. So, you need to respond like a commander in chief would.
So, there are many different ways to go about that, but I absolutely think that they practice that. I will hope that Donald Trump doesn’t think that he should roll up on the vice president but, you know, stranger things have happened, Claire. You just have to remember that you are speaking to the people at home. If there is an audience, I don’t believe that there is an audience in this debate.
Claire McCaskill: There isn’t.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: There isn’t.
Claire McCaskill: No audience.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: You’re speaking to the people at home. So, finding those times to turn directly to the camera and speak directly into the camera, as the camera will be a close up on you and people will really feel like they’re having a conversation with you. And then also finding those ways to needle Donald Trump. I think what gets under his skin the most is when he is dismissed. And so the laughing at him, I think, will be good. You know, doing it with a smile.
But then when it comes to the policy distinctions between the two, Donald Trump is going to, you know, say a whole catechism of things that are not true and that aren’t his policy. Last debate, he tried to take credit for the recovery from COVID, you know. So, he might try to do that this debate as well. And she will have opportunity to say, I know the former President said X, Y, and Z, let me just tell you what that means. And then doing the split screen, if you will, that way.
And lastly, things that he’s doing on Truth Social, he is going to attempt to do those on that debate stage. He is not above a stunt. And I think the best way to deal with the shenanigans, especially when it comes to the attacks on race and gender is to not take his bait and not play his game. And Vice President Harris has been doing that thus far. Her campaign has been doing that, but it is easier when, frankly you’re not on the stage together.
Claire McCaskill: Right.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: They will be on the stage together. And what do you do if he says, well, she’s not really black on the stage. You are going to laugh at him. And then, what’s your comeback pivot? You don’t want to get into a back and forth with him on black or on gender, because like I have been black my whole life and I don’t believe in arguing about that. So, those are things that they will have to absolutely work through.
Claire McCaskill: Yes, and I think one of the things that grates on people’s nerves is talking about whether a woman is likable as a candidate. We all remember the famous moment between Obama and Clinton about her likability. And yes, it sucks but it does matter. Whenever I would debate, you have a moment before it starts, you have paper there and a pencil, you have no notes. She will have no notes. There will be no way she has anything written. There will be a blank pad of paper and a pen. What I always did is I wrote a couple of things on the page, not policy I wanted to remember, not my closing statement I wanted to remember, but I always put smile.
I always wrote down likable. She has such confidence about the policy issues. She does not need to worry about whether or not she can deliver those. I think for her the three things, because, you know, it is performance, it is policy, but it’s also personality. There are people that make up their mind based on how comfortable they are with someone. And I think that’s where she’s got a real edge over this guy. And if she can just dismiss him and act like he’s unimportant, that his act is tired and old and we’re bored with it, all of this lying and all of this nonsense, you know, let’s just talk about how we make things better for the American people.
And I think if she does that with strength, not letting him push her around. She has to be really strong because strength really matters here. Strength but friendly and then once again, remembering that the country doesn’t know her that well. And the country needs to be reassured that she can govern, that she has got her shit together to actually govern this country. It’s a tall order for anybody. It’s especially a tall order for her in these circumstances, how she’s come to the nomination and how she’s run her campaign so far.
It’s a very big moment. Now I know her pretty well, you know her pretty well. You have seen her under pressure. I have seen her under pressure. I have talked to her when she’s happy. I have talked to her when she’s pissed off. I have talked to her when she’s nervous. I have talked to her in a lot of different circumstances. I think she’s got this, don’t you?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes, I think she’s got it. Look, she is someone that has no problem rising to the occasion. Yes, she wants to be prepared and any good candidate should want to be prepared. I want a leader that wants to make sure they have dotted all their I’s and cross all their T’s. But she also she is just, I think she’s laser focused on the stakes is how I would describe how she is just right about now. And frankly, you know, Claire, it’s less than 90 days, almost less than 60.
Claire McCaskill: It’s two months.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: It’s two months.
Claire McCaskill: It’s two freaking months.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: You know how long it takes to make a habit ? It takes 90 days to make a habit or to break a habit. It’s less than that. So, you could do anything for 90 days. You could definitely get the job done in 62 or 60. So, I just think that this is a moment that was tailor made for Vice President Kamala Harris but it is going to be a fight to the end, okay. You might be fighting through the night in November 5th, Claire, but I think it’s definitely doable. And the road to the White House, it goes directly to this debate stage on Tuesday.
Claire McCaskill: And I think one thing that I know they’re doing in debate prep that does matter is they are talking about a moment that would be captured. We know how many people are going to watch the debate, probably more than watch the last debate I’m predicting. That it is a bigger number than the Biden-Trump debate, but really what matters is what is captured and repeated on social media virally and on local news.
You know, we don’t talk enough about the local news. There’s still a whole swath, a middle of the road voters, that watch their evening news every night, if nothing else for the weather hype.
But it is really important that they prepare for a potential viral moment. And that probably is going to be a moment where she puts him in his place. And I know that they have to prepare to try to figure out the right way and time to put him in his place, to put him where he belongs, somebody who is a buffoon and lying and not telling the truth and specializing in personal attacks when that’s not what the majority of the country wants. So, I can’t wait. Are you going to be in Philly?
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I am not, I am going to be in New York, so down the road.
Claire McCaskill: Well, I am going to go to Philly and they are going to kill me. They’re going to work me early in the morning and late at night. These old bones have to put up with it, but it’s worth it because this is a big deal. I am so happy for the vice president and I have a feeling that we are going to want to congratulate her when this debate is over. I’m hope I’m right about that.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Yes, I think so. I think she is going to do what needs to be done because she’s laser focused, so.
Claire McCaskill: Yes.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I can’t wait to see it.
Claire McCaskill: TCB.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: I will be there watching.
Claire McCaskill: TCB. Thanks for joining us for today’s installment of “How to Win 2024” and a big thanks to my co-host today, MSNBC’s Symone Sanders-Townsend. I am honored that you took the time to share this with me today. She will be back with me a few more times before election day. So, keep tuning in because we’re not going to let Symone wander far. She is going to be back in a couple of weeks and I’m looking forward to it. Thanks so much.
Symone Sanders-Townsend: Looking forward to being here. See you soon.
Claire McCaskill: Thanks for joining us on “How to Win.” We really appreciate it. Before we head out this week, we have a lot of exciting content coming up I want to tell you about. First up, I want to let you know about a series we’ve been working on for “How to Win.” It’s called “The Threat of Project 2025.” Four of my colleagues, Ali Velshi, Joy Reid, Jen Psaki, and Chris Hayes have each been diving into key elements of Project 2025. And together they’re helping us understand how a second Trump term could undermine core aspects of everything we hold dear in America, including our democracy.
You can find the first two episodes on Reproductive Rights and Education in this feed starting next week. I also want to note “MSNBC Live: Democracy 2024” is now sold out. Thank you everyone who signed up to join us this weekend. I can’t wait to see you and meet some of you then. And if you didn’t manage to grab a ticket, we will be posting selections of Saturday’s conversations as a podcast next week. So, keep an eye out for that.
Finally, as always, please subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad-free. This show was produced by Vicki Vergolina. Janmaris Perez is our associate producer. Catherine Anderson is our audio engineer. Our head of audio production is Bryson Barnes. Aisha Turner is the executive producer for MSNBC Audio, and Rebecca Kutler is the senior vice president for content strategy at MSNBC. Search for “How to Win 2024” wherever you get your podcasts and follow the series. Go Chiefs.