Five-time Grammy Award winner, Rock & Roll Hall of Famer, and more Billboard No. 1 hits than any other production team in history — these are just a handful of the accolades amassed by Jimmy Jam. The mastermind behind a seemingly endless list of iconic songs like “Control” and “Rhythm Nation” and the legendary producer has long been a venerated fixture of the music industry, alongside his partner Terry Lewis. From serving as the Chairman of the Grammys, to songwriting for Janet Jackson, to growing up alongside Prince, his infectious passion for music and belief in its unifying properties seeps into everything he does. In this episode, he joins Nicolle to share memories and lessons from his storied career.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
Nicolle Wallace: Your point about memory is that you can ask someone what they were doing 20 years ago and they may be able to piece it together, but you play a song from 20 years ago and they remember what rooms they were standing in. It gives me chills. Say more.
Jimmy Jam: Yes, you remember everything. You remember the smells in the air, the temperature. It brings everything back to life. And that kind means that music is the thing that opens that back up and unlocks that. The things that you have forgotten about.
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Nicolle Wallace: Hi everyone. Welcome to The Best People with Nicolle Wallace. When I first had the curdle of an idea to make a podcast with the best people in my life, Jimmy Jam was on every list of possible guests. Jimmy Jam has made music with Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Prince, Jimmy Jam has been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And Jimmy Jam, the human being is a fount of wisdom and perspective and ways to live a creative and meaningful life.
This is The Best People with Nicolle Wallace, and this is Jimmy Jam.
Jimmy Jam, thank you for being here. I got to meet you because I woke up one morning and called Brad Paisley and said I want to do “We Are The World” for Ukraine. And he said, we had to call David Wild, he produced the Grammys, and so I called David Wild and it was like an ungodly hour in the West Coast and I said I want to do “We Are The World” for Ukraine and he said, well, it could only happen if you had somebody like Jimmy Jam involved.
And I said, well, how would I ever get to know Jimmy Jam? He said, well, I’ll ask him. He’ll talk to you. And so I remember where I was standing when we had our first call. And I knew Prince, I knew Janet Jackson, but I did more prep than I do for my own show to get to talk to you. And our first conversation always stuck with me. We talked about the power of music to change the world. And I know you really believe that.
Jimmy Jam: I totally do. I mean, I’ve always felt that, but the way that it articulated to me was during the pandemic, you know, everybody was on Zoom screens all the time. And the thing that I always noticed on the Zoom screens was people’s differences, right? You noticed their lighting or their virtual screen in the background, their male, female, black, white, whether they spoke English or a different language. And It alerted you to all the differences. But as soon as someone played some music, you saw everybody’s heads do this at the same time. And so what it made me realize was that music, if the Zoom screen was the quilt, if you will, of differences, music was the thread of our commonality.
And so as soon as you got people on that same page and everybody doing this at the same time, listening to music, it didn’t matter what language you spoke. It didn’t matter if you were black, white, straight, gay, Democrat, Republican. All of that went out the window for that moment. And I’ve always said that I always felt like music is the divine art because the way it talks to us, the way it allows us to time travel virtually back to that moment we met our first love or graduated high school or whatever that moment is in your life, there’s always a song that’s associated with it.
Nicolle Wallace: You make that point in your acceptance speech at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And I went to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame after I knew you. I met you that year and I went and took my picture in front of your section with Terry. And I was so proud. When am I ever going to know anyone else in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? But you were inducted by Janet Jackson. And you tell this story about the divine art. And your point about memory is that you can ask someone what they were doing 20 years ago and they may be able to piece it together, but you play a song from 20 years ago and they remember what rooms they were standing in. It gives me chills. Say more.
Jimmy Jam: Yes, you remember everything. You remember the smells in the air, the temperature. It brings everything back to life. And that kind of means that we always talk about that we lose memory and that kind of thing. And maybe some of us do. The thing is that music is the thing that opens that back up, it unlocks that. The things that you have forgotten about, music is the thing that does that.
But I just think music is that thing that really, it just transforms, it’s time travel at its finest. It takes you back to wherever, somebody says a year or a date and you play a song from that date, it takes you right back there. And there’s something that’s very divine about that. And as I’ve been telling people, I feel like music is a thing that keeps us sane down here. And I think that because of that, we kind of are angels in a way. And I think I told everybody in the creative community that I know that during these times of divisiveness and all of that, we all need to grow our wings a little bit bigger and flap them a little bit harder and be intentional in the work that we do, whether it’s songs, whether it’s lyrics of songs, really in any kind of art.
I think be intentional that it should be, it should help heal, it should help bring together because we have so many forces trying to divide us. I think music is that ultimate, I don’t like to use the word weapon, but it’s that ultimate tool to me, I guess, to bring people together.
Nicolle Wallace: Is that fraught right now in this political moment?
Jimmy Jam: I just think really with anything, but certainly politics right now. I think there’s a lot of headlines, but not a lot of nuance. I always say, you know, people always talk about to make a long story short, and that’s kind of where we’re at right now. But I actually am working on a podcast called “Short Story Long”, where you take the headline, but you actually expand upon it, or in this case, the music story, and expand upon it.
So I think that what we lose sometimes is the nuance of things. When I’m driving, which is kind of, people always have the instant reaction, somebody cuts in front of you, and the first thing you think is, oh, that’s stupid, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. That’s the first thought you have. But then on second thought, I go, wow, I hope everything’s okay, because they seem like they’re in a really big hurry. You know? I think if sometimes we cannot react to every first thing we hear, and maybe take just a moment, just a pause on it, and try to determine why is someone saying that, rather than just going, oh, they’re stupid.
Okay, no, but what you really want to say is, you maybe disagree with that point of view, but let’s find out why they have that point of view. And then at least we keep a discussion open.
Nicolle Wallace: Is that reflexive for you? Is that your nature, or is that like a practice of positivity? Because everybody, everybody to a person, describes you as from sort of the Zen category of adjectives to the radical positivity. Do you think that is sort of your nature, or is that a practice you’ve cultivated, and how can I get some?
Jimmy Jam: Well, I think it goes to my parents, to my upbringing. My mom was the golden rule, you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or as it’s said today, treat people how you want to be treated. It’s as simple as that. Now, my dad’s side of the family, you know, I was estranged from my dad for 50 years. We recently have reunited, so I really believe in the power of forgiveness and rather than harboring on why things happened in a negative way, we have a chance to move forward in a positive way, so let’s put our energy into that. And also he was, you know, obviously my musical talent.
So I think it’s really the way I’m raised. I’m so fortunate in my life to have, you know, first of all a partner, a lifetime partner in Terry Lewis, but also I get to wake up every day and do what I love doing, which is making music. And when I wake up every day, I just thank God for another chance. I feel like I just get another chance to do something, whether it’s write a song, whether it’s, you know, maybe pay somebody a compliment, maybe help them in some way if I can. I just feel like I’m appreciative of the chances, and that’s kind of my outlook on things.
Nicolle Wallace: What part of sort of being the light and choosing positivity can someone who’s sort of struggling with what you talked about before, the divisiveness or the political moment or the things that are ugly that are happening all around us latch onto?
Jimmy Jam: Well, I think, you know, I go back to the metaphor of being in traffic. I think your first reaction to things is always going to be whatever that is. And a lot of times, it’s going to be anger. It’s going to be I’m pissed off, I’m trying to get somewhere, I’m pissed off, whatever. I think if you can get past the pissed off part, and by no means, it doesn’t mean I don’t get mad and I don’t feel disappointment. Somebody asked me recently what would I tell my 8-year-old self, and my answer was I would say don’t put energy into things you can’t control, but put all your energy into things you can control.
And I don’t feel like I’m a great advice giver because I’m trying to figure it out every day myself. But I do think that I try to always land on the positive side of things because I feel like I have a lot less days ahead of me than I have behind me. And so I want to be conservative in my energy. By no means, it doesn’t mean I don’t get mad. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have bad days or that, because all of that definitely happens. But I do try to see the bright side of things, and I try to just be compassionate and kind.
That energy to me is never wasted. It really isn’t. Even if you don’t feel like you’re receiving it back a lot of times, that’s okay because your intention is to do the right thing, and I think there’s a lot to be said for good intentions.
Nicolle Wallace: You went back to when you were 8. Your 11-year-old self ended up in 7th grade piano class with Prince.
Jimmy Jam: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: Let’s start there. Tell me about that.
Jimmy Jam: So, yes, I met Prince in junior high school. I guess it’s now called middle school, but junior high school back in the day. I think I was in 7th grade. He might have been in 8th grade at that point. And we took a piano class at the high school, which was called Central High School. And it was interesting because the teacher would give us, we both knew how to play. We could play piano by ear, but we didn’t really know how to read music. So the teacher would give us, you know, “Mary Had a Little Lamb” or some really simple song, right? And then she’d say, learn this song.
And, of course, then she’d leave, and we had headphones and these keyboards, and we’d just start jamming. And Prince’s dad was a jazz musician. My dad was a blues musician. And so we both could play, and we would just get in there and just kind of wail away and stuff. And then the teacher would come back, and we’d go, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. And she’d go, yes, that’s great. It was kind of funny.
But the thing that really amazed me about Prince, besides the fact that he could really play the piano really well, was at the end of that semester, they were going to do like a musical. And they asked who wants to come in and be the band, and we all raised our hands and they said, you know, Prince, what do you want to play? and he said, guitar. And I looked at Prince like, guitar? I thought you were a keyboard player. So then he said, Jimmy, what do you want to play? And I said, drums. And Prince looked at me like, drums? I thought you were a keyboard player. But I was a drummer because my first professional little gig was with my dad playing drums in my dad’s band when I was, you know, 12 years old or whatever.
So I knew how to play the drums pretty well.
Anyway, we get in, the very first rehearsal we go to, Prince walks in with his guitar, he plugs it in, he plays the solo from a song called “Make Me Smile” by Chicago. And Terry Kath was the guitar player in Chicago, he was a world-class guitar player. Prince plays this thing note for note, exactly, and I was just blown away. So anyway, we rehearsed some of the songs, it’s cool. I take a break to go to the bathroom, I hear somebody on the drums, I’m figuring it’s the drum teacher or the music teacher, and I come out and it’s Prince on the drums, just killing the drums. He hands me the drumsticks back and I’m like, dude, I can’t do anything with these. You know?
So at that age, and he was I guess 12 years old or whatever, I just, I knew I’d never seen anything like that. And of course to one day as, you know, fate would have it, joining The Time, which was his, I mean, we were already a band, but he was the one that gave us the break to make a record, to tour with him for a couple of years. I think the thing I learned the most from Prince was work ethic, because he would rehearse our band for six hours, he’d rehearse The Revolution for six hours, then he’d go to the studio all night, make a song, and he’d walk in the next day with a cassette, because it’s the cassette days, and he’d walk in with a cassette and it would be, you know, “Lady Cab Driver” or some great song from one of his albums. And it was just kind of like, man, how does this dude do that? You know?
So it was amazing to meet him initially just as a junior high schooler, but you could feel, at least I could just feel the greatness of him even at that point. There was nobody like him, and to me there hasn’t been anybody in my life since him like that
Nicolle Wallace: I have just chills. I mean, yes, I listen to Prince when I run every day. Prince is the soundtrack of my youth. And my daughter, I have a one and a half year old who plays the movie “Sing” and “Let’s Go Crazy” is in “Sing,” too.
Jimmy Jam: Yes, it is.
Nicolle Wallace: Right?
Jimmy Jam: Yes.
Nicolle Wallace: How do you feel about the regeneration of music for generations that weren’t even alive when Prince was alive?
Jimmy Jam: Oh, I love it. Listen, by the way, when sampling first happened, meaning that you could sample a song and then make a new song of it, I remember back a long time ago when people would ask us about it, they’d say, what do you think about sampling? And I’m sure they thought we were going to say, well, it’s cheating and it’s not a talent in that, or whatever. And our answer was, we love it. And they were like, you do? And we were like, yes. Because what it does is it allows musical generations to connect. There’s a great documentary on “Sly and the Family Stone” that’s out that Questlove directed. And we talk about how we did the song “Rhythm Nation” with Janet, which was we sampled Sly and the Family Stone, “Thank You,” and made a new song out of it, which was “Rhythm Nation.”
So to me, what that does is it brings, you know, the people that know “Rhythm Nation,” it goes to a whole new generation, but then it allows people to go back and go, wait, what song was that from? Oh, Sly and the Family Stone? And it allows the discovery process of that to happen. It’s interesting right now that, for instance, Janet’s song, “Someone to Call My Lover,” is, you know, it’s all over. It’s a top 10 TikTok. It was number one on Shazam, I guess, or Apple Music or something. But that song, the origin of that song was a sample of America, “Ventura Highway.” And America was one of my favorite bands. And I always said, if you ever want to know what my favorite music was, just listen to whatever we sample, because that’s our favorite music.
And I actually texted the other day with them, and I sent them a copy of the charts. And I said, hey, we’re number one on, you know, whatever the chart it was at that point in time. And they were like blown away by that. And I said, but that to me is the greatness of music. That’s what should happen. So I love in this generation that young creators are using music of our past that we’ve done to connect people to things that they’re doing now. Because to me, it’s the ultimate connectivity. So I love it.
Nicolle Wallace: David Wild reminded me of a story I think you told on his podcast about how you came to work with Janet Jackson and how you and Terry wanted to spend some time with her. First, it was sort of a juncture in her career and a vulnerable, I mean, she described it as a vulnerable moment for her in her career and in her life. And she said, when do we start writing? And Terry said, the process has started. We’re listening. Just tell me the Janet chapter.
Jimmy Jam: So the Janet chapter was a good example of something that was kind of our philosophy as producers, which was to give everybody their own sound. Use different instruments, use different techniques and all of that to give everybody their own identities. And so with Janet, one of the things we insisted upon was that she come to Minneapolis to record, which was not in her comfort zone necessarily. And then the things we even surrounded her with like she, there was no bodyguards, there was no limousines or anything like that. She had to basically drive herself. So back in that day, there’s no GPS, so it was a Thomas Guide and it was like, here’s you need to get from the hotel to the studio. Here’s, you know, here’s the Blockbuster Video. Here’s the sushi place or whatever. You need to figure out how to get to the places you’re going. But yes, we sat around and just had conversations. And in the conversation, she talked a lot about going out on her own and how important that was and so on and so forth and leaving home.
And so when she said to us, as you ask, you know, she said, when are we going to get started? And we said, oh, we’re started. And we showed her the opening lines of “Control.” “When I was 17, I did what people told me. Did what my father said and let my mother mold me.” Yes, that’s what it was. So that was the opening lines of “Control.” And when she saw that, she said, oh my God. She said, that’s what we’re going to write about? Whatever we talk about? And we said, yes. And then she said, oh, I want to talk about this. It was the light bulb going on.
And I think it’s important to kind of give that to all artists. But Janet, it was probably, you know, because we were doing the whole album, we had a chance to really shape what that was. And she was an amazing muse because to me, there’s artists I really love that I don’t have a desire to work with them simply because I don’t feel like we know how to enhance what it is that they do. So I’m fine just being a fan of those people.
And then there’s other people that we’re fans of that we go, oh, but we think we could really bring something cool to this. And we felt that way about Janet because we felt like when she was a little girl and she was on like the variety show, you know, when she was on Sonny & Cher and when she was on these little shows and the Vegas shows with her brothers, she had so much attitude. And that was the thing we weren’t feeling in the record she was doing, the first couple of albums was just that attitude. And we thought if we can do some music that’s aggressive, that’s funky, that brings back that attitude. And so when we did, you know, something like “Nasty” for instance, you know, and even the way she sang it, she started off, you know, in a high voice, you know, “Sittin’ in the movie show.” We were like, no, no, no, you got to “Sit in the movie” it’s got to be like that. And she said, oh, I get it. I get it. And she sang it like that. And to me, it just kind of transformed the song. And her voice became almost like a rhythmic element of the songs and the way she sang and her breaths that she took, all of those things.
And she was just like the greatest muse, actually continues to be. We have some stuff in the cans as we used to call it back in the day with her. That’s really cool because she continues to be such a muse for us creatively, you know. She inspires us so much. So yes, Janet, she’s very special.
Nicolle Wallace: So you’re all working on something right now, you and Terry and Janet?
Jimmy Jam: Yes, we’re cooking. We’re cooking some stuff up. Absolutely.
Nicolle Wallace: Is it a new album?
Jimmy Jam: We don’t know. We’re just, you know, nowadays because album, the concept of album is so weird now, or I can’t say weird, but a full body of work. I don’t really know whether we’re crafting that as much as we’re just crafting ideas and songs. Been doing a lot of that recently where, because we have songs that we’ve done in the past that didn’t necessarily go where we thought they were going to go, if that makes sense. And all of a sudden, somebody else will hear it and go, oh, wait, I know the perfect thing for that, or, here’s the perfect timing for this to come out. So, you know, it’s God’s timing at this point.
Nicolle Wallace: Wow, I feel like you’ve just made some huge music news.
We’re going to take a quick pause right here. When we’re back, we’ll have much more with my friend, music legend, Jimmy Jam. Stick around.
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Nicolle Wallace: We’re just talking about Prince and Janet Jackson because of your relationships with Prince and Janet Jackson, but I don’t know that there are two more famous people in this country than Prince and Janet Jackson. What are each of them like? What was Prince like? What is Janet Jackson like?
Jimmy Jam: Well, I think they’re both super creative. I mean, I think in the sense of Prince was always, he never was afraid to take chances on things. And if you think about the music that he did, it really crossed all lines. I mentioned Sly and the Family Stone earlier, he was very much a student of that approach to music where if you think about having a female guitar player, a female keyboard player, mixed races, that was very much the makeup of Sly and the Family Stone. And so that was something that wasn’t lost on him at all. So I think he was very unique in that. The other thing I give Prince a lot of credit for was he was a person that saw the best in everybody. He did that with me.
I remember we were working on “777-9311” and I wasn’t singing my, he said, add a part and play another keyboard part and do the choreography. And he just had all these things and I didn’t think I could do it. And of course, he worked us, worked us, worked us. The second day we tried to do the song, I remember the second day we came back to it. And not only was I able to play with both hands, sing my part, do the choreography, but I was able to tip my hat and pull my hanky out and do all the theatrical things we did on stage. And it made me realize that he saw me better than I saw myself. And there’s a gift to doing that. It’s like coaches that coach players, to really get that best performance out of them or put them in the best place to succeed. I think that’s what Prince is, for me, that was his true genius, if you will, besides the fact that he could play every instrument and do all these things.
I think Janet, like I say, is very much a muse. Janet is very much a very trusting person with us, which is the reason that for a long time she didn’t do a lot of interviews and I always would say to people she doesn’t have to because everything that’s going through in her life it’s on her albums. What she was going through in the “Control” era was her striking out on her own. “Rhythm Nation” was very much the social injustice that was happening and her commentary on that. “The Janet Album” was very much a love album.
So you really got, you know, the fact that she was able to open herself up like that with people I think was very important. And the one other artist that I would put in there that we worked with was Janet’s brother, Michael.
Nicolle Wallace: Yes.
Jimmy Jam: And if you think about the musical education that Terry and I got from working with Prince, from working with Janet, from working with Michael, you know obviously having Michael and Janet together on “Scream” which is their only duet but to have a chance to write and produce that. But also have the mentorship of someone like Quincy Jones or the life advice of someone like Clarence Avant, the Black Godfather. We’ve been like sponges. We’ve been able to really soak up just so much knowledge and so much inspiration from people and we appreciate that and we want to give back and tell those stories and allow people to, you know, have some of that, have some of that inspiration that we have and what we feel.
Nicolle Wallace: How does the Michael-Janet collaboration with you and Terry happen?
Jimmy Jam: It was a call from Michael actually. Michael said he wanted to do a duet with Janet and we kind of said okay, maybe, you know and then we called Janet immediately. We said hey do you know about this you know and she said yes, yes, my brother said he was going to call. I said okay. I said are you cool with it? And she said yes. She said the way I’m looking at it is it’s his record I’m just a guest on it. I said, okay cool.
So she came up to Minneapolis. We basically did like six or seven tracks I remember and she was just there for inspiration, you know, she said what do you need me for we said just come up here and just we just need inspiration. And I remember there was two tracks in particular that she liked. One of them was the one that ended up becoming “Scream” which she was that’s the one my brother’s going to like. She knew that.
But then the other track was a track that ended up for her becoming “Runaway” which was a big single for her and she wanted him to not like that song because she said I want that song for myself, so I hope he doesn’t like that song. But she pretty much called it. And I will say the most impactful studio session we ever had was probably with Michael. I mean it was just–
Nicolle Wallace: Why?
Jimmy Jam: It was unbelievable because he walked in so mild-mannered like just, you know, just quiet and you know, he puts his headphones on, he says okay, well let’s run through the song and we launch into the song and he immediately just starts dancing around and twirling and it was like a performance in the studio. And you know, he comes in “I’m tired of injustice I’m tired of scheming.” He just like all this energy and when it got done, she sang the whole song start to finish. When the song was done, I remember Janet came between Terry and I, we were sitting at the board and she was supposed to do her vocal. We were in New York actually working, and she was supposed to do her vocal next and she just said I’ll do my vocal in Minneapolis. She wanted no part, no part of following that what Michael just did.
Nicolle Wallace: Was it competitive or was it deference?
Jimmy Jam: Michael was very competitive. Michael, when he’s done singing he comes in and he says okay Janet you’re going to do your part now and Janet goes Michael, I think my vocal and my voice is a little you know, and so she doesn’t want to do it, right?
So anyway, we send Michael Janet’s vocal that he does in Minneapolis and Michael goes, wow she sounds really good. We said yes good, glad you like it. He said she sounds really good. Where’d she record? And we said in Minneapolis. He said I’m coming to Minneapolis. So he came to Minneapolis. We only use maybe 10% of the vocal he did up there but he just he wanted that experience. He said whatever Janet’s getting, I want to make sure I have that same experience.
So he was very competitive and it was interesting even on the set of “Scream” the music video which was most amazing music video of all time to me. Janet had her camp of people, Michael had his camp of people and I was basically Switzerland. Like I could go to either camp. I would sit in Janet’s trailer for a while and then they’d knock on the door and go Michael wants you in his trailer. I said okay. Then I go over to Michael’s trailer and then they knock on the door and they go, Janet wants you in her trailer. It was hilarious. But somehow, it all got done and their love of each other, I mean yes, there was definitely competitiveness but their love of each other was really the thing.
She really felt like you know anything for my brother because after we did the one song the “Scream” which was all we were supposed to do, he called about the other tracks we did. He said what about these other tracks? Can we do some of these other tracks? And we called Janet and we said he wants some of these other tracks, is that okay? And she said yes, as long as it’s not “”Runaway””, as long as it’s not my track. The other ones are fine.
Nicolle Wallace: What is the magic of Minneapolis for them and for you and Terry?
Jimmy Jam: Minneapolis was a great environment to grow up in. First of all, it was incredibly, I would say just a great, a creative environment. I grew up, my mom very much made sure that every weekend I was either at a Minnesota Orchestra event, a Guthrie Theater event you know watching a play, a children’s theater event. So I really got immersed into kind of the creative scene up there and it was also a very polite society. They call it Minnesota nice where people were very polite to you.
It’s interesting looking back on it now that I think it seemed to me to be a place where racism really didn’t exist, but it just was, it was a polite racism. Every year there was a parade, a big parade they did downtown Minneapolis called the Aquatennial and I will say in the black community felt like we didn’t want to necessarily be downtown at that point and there was a guy named Spike Moss, who I should say there is a guy he’s still around, but he was an activist but he would throw big concerts on that same night. And so the whole north side which was the more predominantly black side of town, they’d do these big outdoor festivals and they’d bring in bands and our local bands would play, my band would play. Terry and me were in different bands at the time, we were competing, so it’d be like the battle of the bands.
And basically what it did was it gave black people a place to go, a place to hear music and do that without being somewhere where we really weren’t wanted to be.
So it was a very subtle, very polite racism that was happening and we were aware of it but we just dealt with it. But I will say that for me was–
Nicolle Wallace: How? How did you deal with it?
Jimmy Jam: Well, first of all by being aware of it. We knew, for instance, when we had our very first studio, I remember we were across the street from I think it was like a funeral home or something. And I remember because there was always nice cars, we were there till 3 or 4 in the morning. A lot of times, the police or the funeral home or whoever in the neighborhood would send the police over to see why are all these cars out in front of this building. And we knew a few of the police officers and stuff and I remember the first couple of times they came by and they said what are you guys doing? And we said we run a recording studio. You know, like do you guys want to come in and see what we’re doing or whatever, and we actually became, you know, friends with the police. But there was a necessary step that if we were white, we wouldn’t have had to go through that.
So I think a lot of it was just the awareness of the reality of the situation, you know, what do they say, play the cards you’re dealt, those were the cards we were dealt. Because there’s an assumption that people are going to be afraid of you because of your skin color and so don’t give them an excuse to, you know, be they’re afraid or whatever.
So I think being aware of that was how we dealt with it. Once again, it was a great place to grow up because the difference was, I think, if we lived in the south, there’d be signs telling us you know, we don’t want you here, or you know, that kind of thing, or someone would just say straight to your face, get out of here, you’re not wanted here.
Like I say, in Minneapolis was a very polite, you know, but you could tell, you can read the room you know right and you can tell this is a place we probably shouldn’t be and you know, so we’re not going to be there. But that’s you know, going back to my childhood and all that, I remember that, it also helped me that my mom came from one of the first, there was only probably three black families, she came from Fergus Falls, Minnesota. There was probably only like three black families in that town and then they moved to you know, down to Minneapolis. And so I think learning from my mom just how to deal with the things that she had to deal with and my dad in the same way of being able, because he was a musician, could play clubs, certain clubs, but wasn’t necessarily allowed to go in the front door of the club, it was kind of come through the kitchen to get to your, you know, you just kind of learn. It’s just kind of inherent in what you learn and how you do it.
So I think that’s probably, that was almost part of life, I guess, if that makes sense.
Nicolle Wallace: We’ll be right back with more of my conversation with Rock and Roll Hall of Famer, Jimmy Jam. Stay right here.
(BREAK)
Nicolle Wallace: I know in the Hall of Fame speech, you thanked the Black Godfather, talk about all of the roles you have in music and with Music Cares and all of those sort of roles that are they’re not they’re not just the making of music and the art and the craft of it, but they’re also sort of you’re an industry leader on all those fronts. Talk about that and why that matters.
Jimmy Jam: Well Clarence Avant the Black Godfather I’m glad you know his name is always mentioned anywhere that has to do with Terry and myself because there would really be no Terry and myself without him.
He was the one, well first of all he gave us really one of our first opportunities with a group called The SOS band to actually record, get in a studio and kind of set the tone of what our careers became, but beyond that, I remember one time we went into his office and he said what are you guys going to be doing in seven years? And we said I’m going to be making hit records. And he said no, no, no, he said I mean what are you going to, what else are you going to do like who’s going to get involved in politics who’s going to get on the boards of companies who’s going to sign new writers and producers like who’s going to be the next Barry Gordy or the next Clarence Avant or the next Dick Griffey of Solar Records or whatever?
And he planted those seeds in us and I remember probably when I turned 40, I remember my wife asked me, she said what do you see yourself doing? What do you want to do? Because you know music, it’s a short career most of the time.
And I said, I just want to be like a music ambassador in some way. And she says, what do you mean? And I said, so to me, like a music ambassador is like Quincy Jones is a music ambassador to me. Like he’s someone that speaks the language of music, does it worldwide, and everybody gets it. And right after I said that, I remember maybe a week later I got a call from Phil Ramone, rest in peace Phil, the great producer, and he said, hey, you should get involved with the Grammys. I’m going to run for chairman, you should run for vice chairman, so on and so forth. And I remember I called Clarence and I said, Clarence, I said, they asked me to be on the board of the Grammys, of the Recording Academy.
And I won’t say it in the language he said it, but I’ll paraphrase and just say, you better get yourself in that room because that’s a room they don’t allow us in. And I thought, okay. So I got in the room. About four years later, I decided to run for chairman of the Recording Academy. And nobody ran against me. And so of course I won unanimously. And I said, and I said in my, in my acceptance speech to the board, I said, I don’t know whether this means you guys all really like me or it means nobody wanted this job. I’m not sure.
But that was the 50th anniversary of the Grammys and we performed on the show that year with Rihanna actually, which was pretty cool, with the time and all that. But the first thing I was able to do was get Clarence a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Grammys. And it just kind of showed the seeds that he planted, which was, what are you going to do with your life? And so that’s why the things that you mentioned, the Music Cares piece, I’m on the board of the Grammy Museum, which is very important. I’m the chairman of the television show. So, you know, I always say when people like the show, you can thank me. If you don’t like the show, you can blame me.
But I am interested in all of those things because to me, when you talk about giving back and people always say, you know, you should give back to your community. Well, the music community is my community. So that’s where I want to give back.
And if I can help, whether it’s fire relief, I remember a while back it was Katrina making sure that instruments got back in the hands of musicians so that they could go raise money. Because you know, the first, as we know, how we met, when you want to raise awareness and you want to raise spirits and you want to raise money.
Nicolle Wallace: Money.
Jimmy Jam: Yes. You put a band together and you do a concert, you know. You do “We Are the World” or you do whatever that is.
So to me, I just think it’s important to make sure that I continue to invest back into that community with my time, whether it’s lobbying on Capitol Hill for issues that have to do with that, which I’ve done a lot of. I just feel like I’m in such an elevated place because of music and that’s the way I treat it. I treat it like a privilege to be able to do that, to be able to speak to people, to be able to help raise money, help raise awareness. But I get to do it from music and that language. It’s just, it’s a beautiful thing. Like I never, I never don’t appreciate it.
Nicolle Wallace: And it’s where people are open. I’m just thinking of the, our collaboration. I mean, Alicia Keys was one of the first people to say yes. Stevie Wonder seems like he’s always there when people want help. Just talk about sort of the generosity and who are the people that always want to help, that see music the way you do?
Jimmy Jam: I’m telling you, I think people, when I reach out to people for things, I usually get a pretty positive response.
Nicolle Wallace: I know. Everyone says yes to Jimmy.
Jimmy Jam: Well, but you know, what I call it, Terry and I talk about this all the time, and I call it the equity of credibility. It’s something that you gain over a long period of time of trying to do the right thing.
And so what happens is, I just was talking the other day with Shawn Stockman from Boyz II Men, and we were talking about how, you know, he says you guys have been for, through, with us through thick and thin, our big, some of our biggest records “On Bended Knee” and “Four Seasons of Loneliness” and these number one records, but then when we were in our downtime, you guys just stuck with us.
And I just think it’s important to do that for people. You have to be there for people. And I, and I think, so like I say, we have the equity of credibility. To me, it’s our most valuable asset. So hopefully if you say our names, if you say Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, hopefully people go, okay, cool. Yes, at least give us the benefit of the doubt, rather than to just go, oh, they suck, or whatever.
Nicolle Wallace: No, a lot more than that. A lot more than that.
Jimmy Jam: It’s real cool. I also think that, and the other thing I think is that, just once again, in God’s plan and the bigger plan of things, Terry and I, when people ask about longevity, I say that you have to get through old. And what I mean by that is–
Nicolle Wallace: Oh, I love this. You have to do this whole, the whole setup, because I feel like I’m entering into this. Do Jimmy Jam’s guide to old. Old to icon. Give me like all the steps.
Jimmy Jam: Yes. From old to icon. Okay, I like that.
So, so to me, if you think about anything that’s old in your life, it’s basically something that you’ve discarded. It could be a watch, it could be an old phone, it could be an old car that’s rusted out. It could be any of those types of things, right? And there’s a period where it’s old. So Terry and I, career-wise, probably went through our old period where we were old and what it did us, it gave us an opportunity to go to all our kids’ recitals and basketball games and all of those types of things.
And what happens is, is you look up, you know, 10 years later, let’s say, and you find that watch in a drawer, you find that phone in a drawer, and first thing it does is it gives you a great memory, like, oh, I remember this. Oh, I remember when I used to have that. And then you have somebody that’ll say to you, oh man, I bet you that’s worth a lot now. It all of a sudden becomes coveted. It becomes classic or vintage or that car, you know? You keep that car, it’s kind of rusted out or whatever, it’s old. But then, you know, 10 years later, it’s like, oh, that’s vintage. Oh, they don’t make those anymore. That kind of thing.
I feel like that’s kind of the career path that Terry and I have had, you know, as our phones are ringing off the hook and our songs from back in the day are on TikTok and viral hits and so on and so forth, is that we made it through old, and now we’re in a position to tell some great stories and to really leave music in a better place, which is our ultimate goal.
Nicolle Wallace: I’m going to ask you just in the spirit of the podcast, if there’s a single sort of best piece of music you’ve been involved in in any way, in helping to make it, in helping to perform it, in seeing it made, in watching it written, what’s like that one thing that gives you all the feels every time?
Jimmy Jam: That’s a great way to ask the question because sometimes people say, what’s your favorite song? And I always go, that’s impossible to answer because there can be different aspects to favorite.
Nicolle Wallace: It’s your children.
Jimmy Jam: Yes, but it could be the process of making it. It could be the result of it if it’s a huge song. The way I always put it is if there was a time capsule that said Jam and Lewis, and a hundred years later, whether it’s aliens coming down or whoever opens it up, what would be the song that would play?
And for us, our number one song will be “Optimistic” by the Sounds of Blackness. That song, for every reason, the making of it, the execution of doing it, the trouble we had in even putting it out because we had people looking at us like, why are you putting out a gospel song? And it was crazy, but we ended up winning a Grammy for it. We went number one. It was a huge record, but really the way it impacted people’s lives was the thing that was the most cool about it and still continues to do that.
So I would say “Optimistic” by the Sounds of Blackness would be that song.
(Clip from “Optimistic” by the Sounds of Blackness)
Jimmy Jam: If Terry was on this with us, his one B, I guess, for one A would be “Optimistic.” One B would be a song called “Open My Heart” by Yolanda Adams.
(Clip from “Open My Heart” by Yolanda Adams)
Jimmy Jam: And that was a song that when we did the song, I remember Sylvia Rhone, who still is the head of, chairman of Epic Records right now. But I remember she heard it and she cried when she heard it. She says, it’s beautiful. And I remember, but the analytics at the time said that it was summertime and we need to put up an uptempo song. And this was a ballad. And I remember we called Sylvia and we said, but the song made you cry. And she sent it to, at this time, one radio station, I think, and said, just test this out and see what happens. And back in that day, before social media, the phones lit up. And by the morning time, the morning jock said, was calling the record company going, wait, what is this record that you played last night that everybody’s requesting? And it was “Open My Heart” by Yolanda Adams. Ended up being a platinum record for her, Grammy winner, the whole thing.
So those would be, I’m kind of cheating, but the two, “Optimistic” by The Sounds of Blackness and “Open My Heart” by Yolanda Adams. I think those songs, if you put Jam and Lewis on those songs, I think it tells you everything you need to know about us.
Nicolle Wallace: I love that. You know that I think you’re the best and above everything else, you’re so cool and you’re so current. And I feel like your magic dust is sprinkled on me just by getting to know you and getting to talk to you. So thank you. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for having this conversation.
Jimmy Jam: It’s my pleasure. But you know, once again, music was the thing that brought us together.
Nicolle Wallace: For sure, for sure. Yes.
Jimmy Jam: You know? And that to me is what’s so important, you know, is that we have this relationship based on that. And I just think that relationship can happen amongst a lot of people if it’s in their lives in the right way. And I’m happy to be a part of that. Thanks for having me.
Nicolle Wallace: Thank you so much for talking to us. I love it. And we love you. Thank you, Jimmy Jam. Thank you so much.
Jimmy Jam: Absolutely.
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